Well then George, I was not talking to you when I said “we” in reference to humanists emphasizing humanistic ethics. :tongue: I also know many religious persons who are very nice. Although, I think that is quite despite their being religious and I wouldn’t use the word “despite” in the case of humanists. I also happen to think that you are very nice, at least so much as I have gotten to know you on this forum.
One thing I can’t wrap my brain around, is Kurtz’s comment that morality is something that can be discovered like any other type of knowledge. I just can’t agree with this. He talks about being good just because of conscience- but what is conscience? In my opinion, conscience is taught and caught - just like any other knowledge, and isn’t a reason to be good.
Another reason he gives for being good is because of our obligations to fellow creatures. Why should I be obligated to act or do anything? I didn’t ask to be born, why should I live by someone else’s rules? If what I do ends up getting me killed, or imprisoned, then that’s my choice. But to act in a certain way because I have some sort of obligation to those around me to live as they see acceptable doesn’t seem like a good reason to be good. I think the only reason to do anything is because you want to. Otherwise don’t bother. But I have always had a problem with the terms ‘should’ and ‘obligations’. I don’t refrain from killing my neighbor because I feel obligated to - I don’t kill my neighbor because I have no reason to kill him. And if someone brings me a pie when I move to the neighborhood out of an obligation feeling, I don’t want the pie. I only want it if the person baked it because they wanted to, not because they felt they owed it to me as a new neighbor.
I am surprised to even hear the term good being used - this is a subjective term, and I don’t think you can stamp a behavior, idea, etc as ‘good’ in any case. If a person believes in God, isn’t it good that they impart their wisdom on this to their kids, rather than letting them burn in hell? I would question a Christian parent who didn’t. Is it good to let someone live who has killed someone I love? What if they kill someone else? Is it better that I let them live and possibly kill again, or should I kill them myself? Or should I let someone else do that ‘dirty work’ for me? I just don’t personally believe in right and wrong, I think that for my own emotional well-being, to be true to my own values is the best I can do, and the best I can ask of any one.
It’s definitely possible I’m missing the point some where here - but though I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe in one true morality that is yet to be discovered by all, either.
That said, I don’t want to live in a violent place. I appreciate a society that creates laws as best we can. But to say that these laws are based on truths… I’m just not sure.
George, I appreciate that you are not making a saint out of yourself. As much as I appreciate the concept of Humanism I have to accept, tolerate, face that others adopt a decidedly more selfish approach to life. Just because Humanism sounds like a desirable approach and of which one might imagine could be adopted by a large majority under ideal circumstances doesn’t mean it will happen. Anyone who has ever run into a bone headed “Dagobert Duck” type capitalist or libertarian can attest to that.
I am far from being a saint. If you’re a moral person consider yourself lucky. We act morally because it’s convenient for us. The moment we can’t afford to be nice, we’ll act like animals. I am sure if somebody was trying to kill your kids you wouldn’t start quoting to him Marcus Aurelius. All this humanistic moral mumbo jumbo reminds me of the Communists trying to persuade me as a kid that we can all live in peace if we only try a little harder.
Nobody’s perfect. I’m certainly not, and I am a bit disappointed by the indirect implication that I am somehow being self-righteous for wanting to promote good ethical conduct. When it comes to morality, it is unreasonable to expect anything more from oneself or others than to try. But it is also important that our fear of appearing self-righteous does not confuse the validity of our aspiring to be righteous. Is not disapproval of self-righteousness a moral judgment in itself?
More importantly, is it not self evident that it is good to try to be good?
Of course humans can live in peace if they try a little harder. There are countless examples of small and large populations of people doing so successfully. I don’t expect all people to get this, but it is a noble and worthwhile thing to hope for and work for. And it is undoubtedly worth striving toward good ethical conduct within oneself.
I should think that persons living in the southern hemisphere could just as easily celebrate their reverse solstices at corresponding times.
No way!!!. I like the open air parties, the swiming pool at night, the asado (a kind of barbecue)
I don’t see any trouble with the xmas celebration. I enjoy sharing a party with my friends and family, the christmas is a good oportunity to be together, eat, drink and exchange gifts. It doens’t seem a religious celebration at all (at least, it doens’t seem a catholic or christian celebration), even the people who identifies themselves as religious don’t seem to be thinking in a religious way (well, maybe it could pass as a pagan celebration).
The christmas has lost its original meaning (a conservative newspaper here today complained about the fact that the consumism fever had hidden the true christmas spirit) to end up by being just a kind of popular party.
No way!!!. I like the open air parties, the swiming pool at night, the asado (a kind of barbecue)
I don’t see any trouble with the xmas celebration. I enjoy sharing a party with my friends and family, the christmas is a good oportunity to be together, eat, drink and exchange gifts. It doens’t seem a religious celebration at all (at least, it doens’t seem a catholic or christian celebration), even the people who identifies themselves as religious don’t seem to be thinking in a religious way (well, maybe it could pass as a pagan celebration).
Southern hemisphere Xmas sounds like fun!
:grin:
Agreed. Our celebrations, such as they are, aren’t Christian either ...
Dark houses during the Christians’ holiday season raise consciousness. IMNSHO we should think twice about throwing such a powerful tool away!
I owe many thanks to the Christmas holiday. If it were not for that famous early lesson in critical thinking, finding out Santa Clause was not real, I may not have been able to raise my consciousness to other supernatural frameworks. I find that I am biologically tuned to learn from narratives and human experiences. I have no problems teaching my future children the varieties of folk lore and traditions that exist. Studying human activities and messages can be a very effective learning method. I prefer to stress inquiry into all holidays, not just Christmas. Consciousness can also be raised with a well lit manger scene with characters of Middle Eastern decent & dress, decorated tree of knowledge or maybe a focused theme on winter astronomy. However, a depending on how far you take this and your neighborhood, a dark house could lower your chances of vandalism. Besides, everyone can benefit from a break from work, time with family & friends and some rest and relaxation (some more than others). Happy Holidays!
Of course, I respect Tom’s right to do as he chooses for his own personal reasons, but I couldn’t disagree more with his assertion that the secular-humanist community is served well strategically when he does not participate in popular holiday cultural events such as Christmas.
I have to agree with Riley. I find this similar to Sam Harris’ unrealistic suggestion that we not use the word atheist. It’s remarkably unrealistic coming from a group whose ads ask us to join the ‘reality-based community’. On the plus side it is food for thought—just like Sam’s speech.
Christmas is increasingly secular and does not have strong religious overtones. We see Peanuts and Winnie-the-Pooh decorations on people’s front lawns more than nativity scenes—I’ll take a ‘census’—I found one house with a manger scene and one with a manger scene on a ‘banner’. But there were 4 with large inflatable secular items and many houses with just lights (like ours)
I was struck by Tom Flynn’s comment that he goes in to work on Christmas.
D.J. was interviewed by Derek Colanduno over at Skepticality for their Christmas episode on the topic of how skeptics and atheists may or may not participate in the holiday season. While it appears that Skepticality was unable to run the interview, you can find the recording from our end below. D.J. disagress with Tom Flynn on a number of points which some of you may find interesting.
D.J. was interviewed by Derek Colanduno over at Skepticality for their Christmas episode on the topic of how skeptics and atheists may or may not participate in the holiday season. While it appears that Skepticality was unable to run the interview, you can find the recording from our end below. D.J. disagress with Tom Flynn on a number of points which some of you may find interesting.
That was a nice interview with DJ and I go along with much of what he said in the interview. I’ve challenged Flynn’s stance on christmas here before along with thanksgiving and so on and I feel his “anti-claus” persona does more harm than good. I “celebrate” christmas with my wife and daughter without any of the trappings of religion. We don’t go to christmas mass but we sure do love all the christmas carols. We feed the capitalist machine by giving and getting piles and piles of gifts and engage in various levels of gluttony as we put on the pounds while eating anything and everything in sight. Santa is still very real to my daughter and that’s OK with us.
My biggest issue with Flynn is that he has blanket categorized any atheists who “celebrate” christmas as “bad atheists” or people who “need their consciousness raised.” To me, that smacks of arrogance. Going in to work on a day where we are all encouraged to be a little nicer and use the time to reconnect with family and friends is just a little too self-righteous for me.
I agree with DJ and many others here who think it’s a far better idea to embrace the celebration and supplant it from within. We’ve managed to take the religious aspect out of Thanksgiving. It is just as easy to do it for christmas too. I and many of my “bad atheist” friends have done it without any issue.
If you’re a moral person consider yourself lucky. We act morally because it’s convenient for us. The moment we can’t afford to be nice, we’ll act like animals. I am sure if somebody was trying to kill your kids you wouldn’t start quoting to him Marcus Aurelius. All this humanistic moral mumbo jumbo reminds me of the Communists trying to persuade me as a kid that we can all live in peace if we only try a little harder.
