1 of 2
1
John Allen Paulos - Irreligion (1-25-08)
Posted: 25 January 2008 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]
Administrator
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  87
Joined  2007-02-21

John Allen Paulos is Professor of Mathematics at Temple University. He has been celebrated as a writer and speaker about the importance of mathematical literacy, although he is also drawn to other related subjects, such as the mathematical basis of humor. He is the author of Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and its Consequences, as well as A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper and A Mathematician Plays the Stock Market. His latest book is Irreligion: A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don’t Add Up.

In this discussion with D.J. Grothe, John Allen Paulos explores some classical proof of God’s existence, and why he discounts them. He criticizes some mathematical proofs for theism, including those based on statistics, and explains how free market economics might challenge Intelligent Design theory. He also details why it is important for the non-mathematician to know math, and how mathematics might be beautiful.

http://www,centerforinquiry.net

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 January 2008 06:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  253
Joined  2007-09-29

From Arts and Letters Daily, http://www.aldaily.org , an online service of the Chronicle for Higher Education (a university ‘rag’)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/books/22kaku.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

The reviewer notes a couple of Paulos’ arguments. At least one of the theist arguments Paulos refutes is a straw-man version.

It’s a little amazing that Paulos has decided we need this book from him, when the innumeracy he alerted us to in the 80’s is still with us unabated. Further, there are plenty enough books by popular authors that stump against religion. (Does he think Dawkins and Dennett and Shermer aren’t good enough or popular enough? For instance, every one of them at some point has dealt with the First Cause argument, i believe.)

Kirk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 January 2008 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  15
Joined  2008-01-07

People wrting books don’t have to ask whether the public “needs” what they are writing.  Different authors have different ways of presenting the same points, and we are enriched by having more books rather than fewer.  It would be valuable for you to critique his ideas, including identifying the “straw man” to which you refer.  Your other statements are not valuable contributions to a discussion.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 January 2008 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  253
Joined  2007-09-29

Dick, hi.

But what do you think of the review? Have you read the book?

But to expand on my comment, to make it a bit clearer. No, the world does not need another hastily-written book, and no-one was waiting for it to come out. Books that promote one’s own point of view aren’t just thereby good books; and poorly-written books, no matter how popular and ‘exciting’, ultimately confuse people who don’t catch the mistakes in reasoning, ultimately mar the work for those who do, and generally darken counsel. There are plenty of good books being unread. As to mathematical arguments in particular, Paulos can sometimes be accused of mathematicizing arguments that already worked just fine. Books being published by scientists or those who speak for science and reason ought to be held by a very high standard indeed, and none better than a mathematician knows this. Paulos writes for his own reasons, but it’s legitimate to criticise it.

None of this is a personal attack against you; and we are free to comment as we like within reason, and I chose to comment on the book and its content as a whole rather than bring up one or the other of its separate arguments. If you’d like to do that, which one interests you? Do you yourself see any weak points in them?

Also, I notice there’s a lot of snarky talk on this forum. Why attack my style on th very first go? I can point to much, much worse with no censure to show for it.

Kirk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 January 2008 06:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  804
Joined  2007-09-03

Here is a comment I put in another thread [comment 1]

Jackson - 13 January 2008 07:44 PM

The book Irreligion:  A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don’t Add Up

Review and discussion on

[ richarddawkins.net] —positive; 150+ comments in discussion.

Review in Sunday NY Times Book Review
[ by Jim Holt in NY Times Sunday Book Review ] attacks Paulos as a new atheist. To paraphrase the reviewer, “New Atheist” means you don’t reference historical theology enough—if Descrates, Leibniz, and Hegel (what about Newton?) thought the classic arguments for God were nontrivial why is Paulos trashing them a la Dawkins?

NY Times has the first chapter at
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/books/chapters/1st-chapter-irreligion.html

I think that you will find, as I did, that the first chapter speaks for itself.  I think this book complements the God Delusion. But then I’m a mathematician…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 January 2008 09:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5439
Joined  2006-02-14

I believe that the only “new atheist” book that got a decent review from the NYTimes was Hitchens’s, for some odd reason. I think it was more “literary”.

 Signature 

Doug

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 January 2008 03:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  15
Joined  2008-01-07

Dear Inthegobi,

I have not read the book.  I do not think my comment was in any way a snarky personal attack.  I do think you comments were a putdown of Poulos and not a real critique of the book, as I indicated.  For all I know the book may be terrible, but I would like particulars rather than a broad brush attack.

I am new on this forum, but I have been a longtime poster on Internet Infidels, and, now that I have discovered this site, I have posted in the style I have always used.  I criticize people’s posts, but not people and try to be serious (usually).

Dick

[ Edited: 27 January 2008 04:03 PM by Dick Springer ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 January 2008 05:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  253
Joined  2007-09-29
Dick Springer - 27 January 2008 03:58 PM

Dear Inthegobi,

I have not read the book.  I do not think my comment was in any way a snarky personal attack.  I do think you comments were a putdown of Poulos and not a real critique of the book, as I indicated.  For all I know the book may be terrible, but I would like particulars rather than a broad brush attack.

I am new on this forum, but I have been a longtime poster on Internet Infidels, and, now that I have discovered this site, I have posted in the style I have always used.  I criticize people’s posts, but not people and try to be serious (usually).

Dick

Only the first three pages of the actual book are available online - naturally enough, since the book’s new, but there’s no actual argument presented in that introduction.

On the other hand, the reviewer *does* review one of the arguments Paulos gives, and critiques it. Assume the reviewer has represented Paulos accurately (he does quote the author); can a reasonable man then conclude along with Jim Holt that Paulos fails in his proof?

I’ll note that Holt has written on other science topics (according to a little bio I found) and has a forthcoming (if not now out) book on infinitesimals. He doesn’t sound like a mere hatchet-man.

So far there’s been no good reason to avoid criticizing Paulos for writing a badly-argued book, if the first proof as Holt reviews it is any indication. And as to criticism, Paulos is not like you or I - he’s willing to put himself out in the public eye and open to public opinion, and to invite public criticism and comment on his published works. And again, he’s a mathematician, and if we cannot trust them to have iron-clad proofs, we can trust no-one.

Well, to be strict, Dick, your comments had me as their subject, and my attitudes as their object. Sorry if I provoked anger in you. However, me and my attitudes are not relevant to the matter of Paulos’ book, or even to my particular criticisms. I based my critique on the review. I’ve been trying to find a review in a mathematician’s journal; but I think a review by a mathematically savvy journalist is good enough to make a probable decision about its worth.

Kirk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 January 2008 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  253
Joined  2007-09-29

Another review, from the Toronto Star, more positive than the NYT one:

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/297564

To pursue my (crabby) point about good and bad books. For a little decisive evidence, let’s use this more positive review from the Star. Sorry for the length:

(1) Paulos gives advice about debating, only to ignore it:

“It’s repellent for atheists or agnostics,” he admonishes, “to personally and aggressively question others’ faith or pejoratively label it as benighted flapdoodle or something worse. Those who do are rightfully seen as arrogant and overbearing.”
That doesn’t prevent him from doffing the gloves. The ontological argument is “logical abracadabra.’’ The design, or teleological argument, is a “creationist Ponzi scheme’’ that “quickly leads to metaphysical bankruptcy.’’
Much of theology is “a kind of verbal magic show.’’ A claim that a holy book is inerrant because the book itself says so is another logical black hole.

Objection: ‘Abracadabra’, ‘creationist’, ‘Ponzi scheme’, ‘bankruptcy’ and ‘magic show’ are all things that humans do or make - none of them are properties of arguments. That may appear a very small point, but consider. First, Paulos admonished folk against just such personal attacks, and the fact that the book employs them as qualities of arguments or beliefs is obscuring the personal attacks, not avoiding them. (Sure, we might well ask if creationists are setting up an intellectual Ponzi scheme and so forth - but none of that interesting discussion would be about arguments pro and con God’s existence). Secondly, none of those terms are exact - all are metaphorical at best. None of them have any mathematical rigor - and what other, lesser kind of rigor was I to expect?

Paulos is a fine writer, as Innumeracy and other books attest. Therefore he has more choices in his writer’s toolkit than ‘write like an utterly boring textbook’ and ‘write with a lot of pin-pricks against various opponents, and a lot of hazy but exciting metaphors.’

(2) Here is a rather subtle example:

Those and other efforts remind one of the story, perhaps apocryphal, of Catherine the Great’s request of the German mathematical giant Leonhard Euler to confront atheist French philosopher Denis Diderot with evidence of God. The visiting Euler agreed, and at the meeting, strode forward to proclaim to the innumerate Frenchman: “Sir, (a+bn)/n = x, hence God exists. Reply!”
Diderot was said to be so dumbfounded, he immediately returned to Paris.
To Paulos, the tale is a great example of “how easily nonsense proffered in an earnest and profound manner can browbeat someone into acquiescence.”

It seems obvious that Euler didn’t believe the argument he made, even if he believed each of its parts (i.e. that (a+bn)/n = x, and that God exists). And Euler didn’t claim to have won, even if Diderot *may* have acquiesced. Once more, Paulos hasn’t told us exactly about arguments, but about browbeaters - again, he’s on about certain people. Okay, down with browbeaters. But this isn’t what a mathematician as such thinks, but rather what you can find any shmo atheist saying. And he took a whole story to say it, and mis-used the story a bit, too.

A better interpretation is that Euler was having fun with both Catherine and Diderot: “You, Catherine, dont’ know enough math to know there’s no proof within it for or against God, and you, Diderot, are also too innumerate to even pretend you know if my argument is good or not.’ To be fair, Paulos makes that point too; however he forgets to attach it to the Euler/Diderot story where it makes better sense.

Here is an example from the Star review of an appeal to authority that shifts ground (two fallacies in one):

As for the problem of good and evil, he defers to fellow atheist, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist Steven Weinberg: “With or without religion, good people will do good, and evil people will do evil. But for good people to do evil, that takes religion.”

To defer to another person, whose arguments aren’t reviewed, is to appeal to an authority - it’s an appeal rather than a legitimate argument from authority because the ‘popular’ audience intended for the book won’t all agree with Weinberg. Okay, forget those people - the book’s just for atheists. But then whither it being popular? That means ‘for the people’ - the average person at least. If the book’s just for atheists and militant agnostics, that’s just preachign to the choir.

Further, even if Paulos’ claim from Weinberg may be true, it is not obvious, and it’s poorly phrased - is Weinberg talking about people who belive in a God or in a separate moral realm whatever that may be (and thus ‘religion’ is a paraphrase), or rather about an organized church (and so contra religion as such)? To move from ‘god’ to ‘religion’ is a shift in ground.

So the whole passage is confused, and shifts ground (inadvertantly) from the original book’s thrust (arguments pro and con *God*), while employing as extra evidence a not wholly relevant and rathe rdifferent set of arguments (those pro and con organized beliefs about God).

So: hastily written, at best, and containing ‘arguments’ that may well make the right troops feel good about themselves, but ultimately have no inner strength.

I’m not here to argue on God’s behalf. I’ll settle for defending a more strict worship of the goddess Reason. So far, Paulos’ book looks scrappy and uneven, and full of logical holes - maybe they’re not fatal holes to his general argument - we shall see - but they certainly eat at his authority, and they can get lodged in people’s minds as mistakes in reasoning will do.

We could well add to this from the NYT review by Holt. I ask the reader just to put aside which ‘horse’ he’s betting on, and treat each argument like a horse-doctor. So to speak.

Kirk

[ Edited: 28 January 2008 07:20 AM by inthegobi ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 January 2008 02:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  15
Joined  2008-01-07

Dear Inthegobi,

I am not now and never have been angry about this.  I did take your response to my first post as indicating that somehow you regarded it as a personal attack, which was the last thing I intended.  Further comments here indicate that your attitude about the book was justified and I dont expect to buy it.  I was only objecting to the lack of any specifics in what you said.  Hatchet buried.

Dick

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 January 2008 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  253
Joined  2007-09-29

No, i never mentioned anger. But nothing to worry about - and I assumed too quickly that all i had to do was point, and it would be obvious.

Kirk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 January 2008 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  804
Joined  2007-09-03
inthegobi - 28 January 2008 07:15 AM

Another review, from the Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/297564

I finally got around to the interview. I think D.J. did a terrific job and that his interviews are a good complement to the new books.

I like the quick summary of the ‘ontological argument’ in the Toronto Star review:

(crudely, that if we can conceive of God, then God exists)

I think Paulos is spot on that a lot of the so-called theological discussion is nonsense and that the ‘new atheists’ get criticized for not familiarizing themselves with centuries of discussion of the Emperor’s New Clothes.

Kirk, here is the first chapter to read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/books/chapters/1st-chapter-irreligion.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  253
Joined  2007-09-29
Jackson - 28 January 2008 08:21 PM

Kirk, here is the first chapter to read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/books/chapters/1st-chapter-irreligion.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

I only see the first 3 pages - is that the whole first chapter? If so, there really isn’t a single proof in those three pages (which isn’t bad in itself - it’s just an introduction). That’s no more than I could see without registering (I hate to register for these things, and I feel just a tiny bit cheated by the NYT - not by you - for giving me no more than I got before I coughed up some basic info.)

You’ve told me about your feelings about the book, and that they agree with Paulos. But what about the content as revealed by the two reviews?

cheers,

Kirk

Just a reminder: I’m discussing the content of the book, and expressing my dissatisfaction with it as a teacher and someone who is very interested in popular expositions of difficult thought. While one may speak sharply, the sharpness is directed at the bad arguments, not on ‘Is Paulos a nice guy?’ or ‘Will another book by an atheist make other atheists sing, and theists grind their teeth in dismay?’ I’m sure he is, and I’m sure it will produce all the usual good and bad feelings. None of that is - to me - exactly on-topic when reviewing and judging a book. I might as well ‘praise’ Behe for ‘raising awareness’ about the existence of God. If his arguments have severe and fatal flaws, then his book’s no credit. Likewise with any book at all that purports to give proofs and justified arguments.

So while I sympathise with all the opinions of feeling about the book and its writer, it’s obscure how that counts as a critique of the book and its arguments per se.

Kirk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  405
Joined  2007-07-19

Kirk,

It appears your critiques of this book are that it doesn’t appeal to the upper echelon of logical reasoning.  I missed the point where this was Paulos intention.  As I understood, this book is not written for the logically infallible, but for the layman with an interest in statistics and equation based logic.  I have not read the whole book, so I can’t offer rigorous critique of any logical fallacies.  I can say that your argument sounds an offal lot like a case for throwing out the baby with the bathwater.  Not to mention, you repeat that this book was hastily written, while it appears your critique of this book falls victim to the same logic.

I don’t doubt that after you read this book you can find errors.  My argument is that sometimes errors are necessary to make a specific message (such as the goddess of reason) palpable and set an individual on the right course for further inquiry.  Remember, many of the people this book is targeting are bombarded by illogical arguments and fall victim to these fallacies.  Some ideas are thorny enough that it takes a variety of books before the reader elevates their consciousness and critical thinking skills.  Given the goal of promoting reason lets look at these two cases:

(1) a book that is based 5% on logical fallacies that makes a reader 20% less likely to fall victim to a logical fallacy.

(2) a book that is based 1% on logical fallacies that makes a reader 5% less likely to fall victim to a logical fallacy.

I would argue that they are both helpful books and a world that has both choices is better off than a world that has just one.

Also along this point, what peaks some people’s interest to open a book may not work for others.  For instance, I have some ex-college roommates who have shown increasing interest towards atheist literature.  A few of them have a background in computer engineering and the logic of following code, and another friend who is obsessed with the statistics of poker and the edge that knowledge gives him over other emotionally driven players.  I think Paulos book will resonate more with their statistical and formula related backgrounds and interests than the other popular atheist author’s points of view.  Likewise, I have a couple other college buddies who have economics degrees; I think Shermer’s Mind of the Market would be the best gift for them.  Once these books give them an interest in the topic of reason they may be interested in more thorough and “un-hastily” written books from Bertrand Russell, A. J. Ayer etc.

Scott

[ Edited: 29 January 2008 10:30 AM by retrospy ]
 Signature 

“It is the tension between creativity and skepticism that has produced the stunning and unexpected findings of science.” ~ Carl Sagan

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  375
Joined  2007-06-19
Jackson - 28 January 2008 08:21 PM

I like the quick summary of the ‘ontological argument’ in the Toronto Star review:

(crudely, that if we can conceive of God, then God exists)

I think Paulos is spot on that a lot of the so-called theological discussion is nonsense and that the ‘new atheists’ get criticized for not familiarizing themselves with centuries of discussion of the Emperor’s New Clothes.

I couldn’t agree more. I think Paulos’s book is worthless as the theological discussion is worthless… it is no need to be familiar with every little detail of nonsense to realize that something is nonsense.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  804
Joined  2007-09-03
inthegobi - 29 January 2008 10:04 AM


But what about the content as revealed by the two reviews?
cheers,
Kirk

Again I thought the interview was good. It overlaps with chapter 1 (i.e. strawberry shortcake) but D.J. has an O.K. format.

Here is another review, with some exceprts including an example of a refutation of one of those pesky ‘proofs’ of God’s existence:
http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/2008/01/a-mathematical.html

Or consider [ NY Times ‘Freaknomics’ Blog] where they also ask about all the ‘atheist’ books lately. I think there is clearly an interest in this area (based on the sales of some of the books) and it’s not surprising to see more published in this category. 

I think that another book and another perspective should be welcomed.  Think of this as another talented person stepping up and attesting to the the good news of rationality.

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 2
1