Yes, but what evidence is there for any of that, Daisy? Jesus is no longer alive. There is no evidence whatever for the persistence of the soul after death—your “soul” is just a manifestation of your brain. So talking with Jesus is about as useful as talking with Julius Caesar. He’s not around to hear you.
And sure, there are plenty of claims written down about the way the world is. Some of them are in the New Testament, others in the Old Testament, others in Greek or Norse myths, in the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Maya Popol Vuh, and scores of other places. They can be fun to read, but not to take them as true.
Yes, but what evidence is there for any of that, Daisy? Jesus is no longer alive. There is no evidence whatever for the persistence of the soul after death
As there was no evidence for man being able to fly 2000 years ago, yet today he does. jesus doesn’t exist in the form you guys are looking to fit Him for the simple reason He is not a lab rat. You have to think outside of your own human and/or scientific box. I am not saying you have to listen to the crooks and charlatans, crooks and charlatans are His very opposites. The fact of the matter is we as humans do not have an all encampassing perspective. We are not multidimentional. And because of it, there are things it will take us time to get to. Plus, one can add that based on the low level of trust I had in the medical establishment, Jesus responded to a call I made from an atheist’s seat! He could have acted like the human we all act like in working to judge Him by telling me “go have your atheists friends help you out.” There was no demonstration of ego on His part, no feeling of unforgiveness, no pride, etc. just love, forgiveness healing and restoration, that’s it. Why wouldn’t I follow a Ghost like that?! I have no reason not to.
-- your “soul” is just a manifestation of your brain. So talking with Jesus is about as useful as talking with Julius Caesar. He’s not around to hear you.
Well, something magnificent sure did happen that day. I don’t know what exactly happened and how it did, I only know it did. The only one I called upon was Jesus, I didn’t call a doctor, I didn’t use any medication, I didn’t do anything. Yet, when time came, I stood, as simple as that.
And sure, there are plenty of claims written down about the way the world is. Some of them are in the New Testament, others in the Old Testament, others in Greek or Norse myths, in the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Maya Popol Vuh, and scores of other places. They can be fun to read, but not to take them as true.
There are parts in the bible I have big problem with because they simply do not add up. So I am with you there but there are others that that seem more than authentic to me. I am not cherry picking here, it is perfectly acceptable in my opinion to use a head God gave me, one can only imagine the alterations the bible has undergone over time and the damage that has caused its cridibilty.
To further clarify Haught’s position, I watched a video on google, an interview with Haught, and he argues for a hierarchy of the sciences, a mix of thing, action, and actor. He says as an example, imagine a pot of boiling water. Science says it is boiling because the atoms are moving at a certain rate. Another person could say it is boiling because I turned on the gas. And still another person could say it is boiling because I want tea. He says, all these statements are true. So in essence Haught is arguing for a NOMA like structure where the whys are separated from what he sees as the mechanics of a thing or the how. It also seems he wants the whys to have equal consideration and says that in the how part of things, theology should have no interference.
Richard Dawkins is focused on the scientific truth of whether God exists, whether a particular thing actually happened. In the course of this pretty congenial debate Richard asks Madeline whether she believes in the Virgin Birth, and Madeline (raised as a Roman Catholic) backpedals very fast. What she says is that she “is not sure what belief is”—it comes across to me similar to the “belief in belief” conundrum which Daniel Dennett has described. Madeline believes in the IDEA of the virgin birth, and for her that is enough—but it is clear that if Richard pesters her enough she will either admit that no, it’s not “literally” true—however, they basically drop the topic before it gets too far.
I think think boiling water analogy is interesting, particularly if we can actually clarify some ideas of religion are parallel beliefs. I disagree that all ways of looking at reality are equally valid— it doesn’t follow that the “whys” deserve “equal” consideration.
I also don’t see that belief in myth or religious superstition is analogous to the concrete boiling water examples. A better analogy to me is some superstitious explanation like the heat is ‘tickling’ an invisible being who “is” the water.
See Daisy, the problem is that your experience proves nothing about Jesus. Hindus who are sick pray to Vishnu and get better. Buddhists meditate on the causes of suffering in desires and the illusion of self and get better. Atheists go to doctors or wait for time to pass and get better. On the other hand, people pray to Jesus (or Vishnu) and do all of these other things and don’t get better. Doing something and then feeling better (or not feeling better) doesn’t reliably say anything about the causal relationship between the two.
When prayer has been studied scientifically, it hasn’t shown any benefit. Of course, you’ll say the God can do what He wants and so science can’t presume to judge him. But all you’re doing is presuming to judge that he answered your prayer and that proves he exists. That’s no more meaningful than anybody else’s story about their gods or the lack thereof. If I had pain like yours and prayed for it to go away but it didn’t, you’d just say God chose to leave me in pain for some inscrutable reason. So if you’re honest and consistent, you have to admit you believe because you believe, because you have faith, not because logic and evidence shows that jesus heals.
See Daisy, the problem is that your experience proves nothing about Jesus. Hindus who are sick pray to Vishnu and get better. Buddhists meditate on the causes of suffering in desires and the illusion of self and get better. Atheists go to doctors or wait for time to pass and get better. On the other hand, people pray to Jesus (or Vishnu) and do all of these other things and don’t get better.
I can assure you I didn’t do any other things yet I have gotten more than better because my back afterward seemed to have rejuvenated.
Doing something and then feeling better (or not feeling better) doesn’t reliably say anything about the causal relationship between the two.
If you’ve seen how i was b4 and after, you would have probably agreed that it does in this case.
When prayer has been studied scientifically, it hasn’t shown any benefit.
that is irrelevant, what counts is how people benefit from it when they practice first hand prayer. If their prayers never get answered why would they keep on praying? Also, on physical level, prayer could be powerful brain stimulant that helps trigger the release of the right neurochemicals needed for a particular body part to heal.
I am saying that because, as I mentioned earlier, this is not the first time I bulged a disk. The first time was a work injury, and I ve used the same method to come back from it. In fact the dr. who treated me, claims I am the only patient he’s ever had that came back from such injury as fast as I have (he MRI-ed me so he knew I wasn’t making up anything). With that one it took me about 10 days to come back. I could take credit for it, but I think that would be pathetically arrogant.
Of course, you’ll say the God can do what He wants and so science can’t presume to judge him.
no, that is not what I was going to say. In fact if there is anybody who would likely get on god’s case, that would gloriously be me believe it or not. Before last september and prior to my brief atheistic escapade, I would usually be in mental argument with Him for like at least 50 % or the time. Label that what you wish I don’t mind.
But all you’re doing is presuming to judge that he answered your prayer and that proves he exists.
whether he exists or not, prayer healed me and that’s what remains.
That’s no more meaningful than anybody else’s story about their gods or the lack thereof. If I had pain like yours and prayed for it to go away but it didn’t, you’d just say God chose to leave me in pain for some inscrutable reason.
Hell no I wouldn’t say that, I’ve been through some awefully horrible ones not to be that coldstoned with any suffering person not just you.
So if you’re honest and consistent, you have to admit you believe because you believe, because you have faith
I lost faith for about a year and half prior to that injury, but after I admit, I got it right back. Prior to that I felt free and loved it. Currently I am not that free but I am that much more grateful because of how bad things were, I thought I might end up paraplegic and I am not using this word lightly.
, not because logic and evidence shows that jesus heals.
Jesus is out of the human logic and evidence bubble. I hope you won’t get mad at me for saying that, this is how I am coming to grasp him. I might be whatever it is you think I am but one thing is for sure, I am not your enemi, the fact I am posting here and not else where is a proof of it.
When prayer has been studied scientifically, it hasn’t shown any benefit.
that is irrelevant, what counts is how people benefit from it when they practice first hand prayer. If their prayers never get answered why would they keep on praying? Also, on physical level, prayer could be powerful brain stimulant that helps trigger the release of the right neurochemicals needed for a particular body part to heal.
It could be, but the problem is that there’s no reason to believe so. There’s no evidence that prayer works, as Brennen has said. When you say, “what counts is how people benefit”, you are already assuming there is some benefit, when studies have shown that there isn’t.
As for your question, “If their prayers never get answered why would they keep on praying?”, the answer is the same as with any ineffectual superstition: it’s because people believe false things. People believe the prayers are helping them, even though they are not.
Daisy - 02 March 2008 10:47 PM
whether he exists or not, prayer healed me and that’s what remains.
What remains is that you prayed and then you got better. This does not mean that prayer healed you. You would have gotten better with or without the prayer.
Daisy - 02 March 2008 10:47 PM
Jesus is out of the human logic and evidence bubble.
Well, this is what people say when they have no reason to believe, when they notice it’s all a form of irrationality. I understand that move, but be aware that irrationality is quite dangerous. It will justify anything.
[quote author="mcfia"]2) Things that exist, but cannot be detected or understood empirically.
I’m specifically asking about #2 for this thread.
Do you think it is even possible for these types of things to exist?
As a general rule (and I know it gets a bit fuzzy in the quantum realm, I do not accept the existence of things that cannot be detected (at least potentially) and as such I utterly reject the idea of NOMA and of science and religion complimenting each other. My reason for this is simple ... religion (sprituality, transcendentalism etc.) have never explained a damn, whenever science turns it’s eye to claims of the miraculous it invariably finds evidence to suggest said miracle is non-miraculous inasmuch as it is explainable, or fraudulant or there is no phenomenon to speak of.
IMO the only reason that these things remain in any way credible is that people believe dumb things and intelligent people will defend dumb beliefs in intelligent ways.
You’ve ignored most of my points, which of course faith leads one to do.
If Jesus is the real and only god and he made you better, why do people who pray to other gods get better? Why do people like me who don’t pray get better?Why do people who pray to Jesus not get better sometimes? You can’t just say “I don’t know but I know Jesus is the one god and made me better” without completely renouncing logic or reason and relying only on faith. Of course, you may choose to do that, and I won’t argue with faith. But you keep acting like what you are saying makes some logical or reasonable sense, and it doesn’t. You either accept ommon sense or ou accept faith an mystery, but you can’t have it both ways.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m glad you feel better, and I never blame someone for being willing to try anything when they hurt. I just know in my heart that god had nothing to do with it, just as you know in your heart he did. I rely on reason, logic, and evidence a well as how I feel, you rely only on how you feel. That’s what faith is.
Daisy, couldn’t it have been a case of time and rest that helped your back get better and not some supernatural being? And similar to Brennen, who do your really know it was Jesus who healed you? Why not Vishnu, Buddha, YHWH himself, Bast, Joshua, Mithra, or even Amen Ra? Could it have been, in reality, a case of neurochemicals that shut down some of the pain, esp after you had plenty of rest? Or maybe the rest alone helped. Another question, how can you be absolutely sure you are not praying to yourself and IF you are so certain, how do you know you are not really praying to Mithra or Horus? (Um, no, I don’t believe in a historical Jesus, but that’s besides the point).
Also, Doug is right, you would have gotten better with or without prayer, but like meditation, you could have stimulated chemicals in your brain to help you relax and thereby suppressing some of the pain you were having. Deep breathing, imagery, and alike has the same effect. The thing is, it was not adult letters to a Santa Claus god or a friendly ghost that helped you to get better. It happened on it own with a little help from rest. Maybe the paralysis you spoke of was your body’s way of telling you that you must stop and get some rest, whether you want to or not. At some point, our bodies can and do make us stop going and it happens all on it’s own. Even sleep deprived people body’s, which I was for a few days last week, force them to sleep whether they want to or not. No matter how hard they fight sleep to get things done, their body’s will eventually override the voluntary command and trigger involuntary commands that cannot be fought. The same could very well be applied to a sever injury as you described, all do to neurochemicals. Your body’s natural defenses will kick in, eventually, to preserve itself, if it can, forcing you to stop and rest. You got the rest and afterwards, your body’s nutritional reserves were depleted, in which you had to get nurishment in order to finish the healing.
However, the 9 days of self-imposed fasting did your body more harm than good and a 21 day fast will also do your body damage. (BTW, that 14 lbs… mostly water. You’ll gain most of it back sooner than the number of days you fasted, if you have not already) That is another problem I have with religion- the effects it has on women. It can and quite often does cause anorexia (or some other eating disorder) and grown women can get an eating disorder. I know from past experience, as well as educating myself, and if you keep that up… Well, notice that first thing you said, after fasting, was that you lost 14 lbs and you are turning around and doing an even longer fast. You see where this is going? Eventually, you may think your god is “Jesus”, but in reality it will be something totally different- the numbers on the scale for example. It will rule your life and because you want to believe it is God influencing your life, it will become a vicious circle. In the end, you will hopefully realize what is happening or you’ll end up doing more damage to your body. You may think I’m exaggerating and denying your “Jesus/God”, but the truth is, that superstitious belief wasn’t the cure for your back and your praise with fasting isn’t going to help you. It will be a vicious cycle of fasting, illness, bed rest, prayers to be rescued because your back is worse again or you’re sick, getting better because you rested and hopefully ate, then back to fasting again in praise of what? In praise to what? In all honesty, I suggest bringing it back down to earth and start loving yourself and others. No, I mean for real, not because some sky deity told you to love others, while you neglect yourself on the side. The only person who can make you better is yourself, by listening to your body and all that fasting isn’t going to get it. It seems to me, you are giving control of your body to something that doesn’t even exist and will never exist. What loving god would want you to go without eating for 9 days, 21 days, or 40 days? I can’t imagine it and it’s pure insanity.
I don’t believe you are stupid, Daisy, but think about it- you get better and give your body over to God, due to some prayers you said. Now it’s better and you are tearing it down again by not eating? What sense does that make? I know you are smarter than that, Daisy, and I am sadden that religion is doing a number on you, as it does so many women. All you are doing is “crucifying” yourself, which also makes no sense at all, if the last crucifixion was suppose to have been Jesus. St. Kathrine starved herself to death, via fasting. Martin Luther almost did too, until he started questioning such self-harming and self-degrading ways. The Buddha came to the same conclusion, as well as many more. If you don’t want to give up a belief in a god, at least take a close look at what you are doing to yourself, like others before you have, and ask yourself whether or not a supposed loving deity would want you to do that to yourself. At the very least, even if you don’t decide to entirely think for yourself and be your own master of your life, maybe you’ll come to the same conclusion as Martin Luther and Buddha. Fasting isn’t going to help your health though. It’s far better to love and take care of yourself, IMHO.
I have only briefly scanned through the replies to the original post so I might be repeating some points here, but here’s my thoughts on the issue…
Empiricism isn’t the only method available to science. Here’s a brief definition: “based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic”. Clearly there are other methods which science uses, especially theoretical science.
The methods of science are effectively arbitrary if you look at the bigger picture, but I would offer two points which seem to elevate them above the alternatives (faith, anecdotes, etc)…
1. They work. No one can deny the success of science in the practical sense. Most technology arises from science and few people would deny its effectiveness.
2. Applying common sense seems to indicate the scientific method should work. We make a hypothesis, test it through well documented experiments, analyse and criticise the results. Repeat until general acceptance or new evidence. Even if science didn’t exist there would still be a viable methodology.
As far as there being a possibility that another plane of reality exists which doesn’t affect “our” reality. That is a pointless hypothesis. If that plane exists (and contains god, for example) and doesn’t intersect with our reality at all then effectively it doesn’t exist.
If it does affect our reality then the scientific tools we have can examine it, even if its only indirectly. I can’t see any way this type of believe can be supported.
It could be, but the problem is that there’s no reason to believe so.
that’s true but in order to make something happen one must believe it first. Without belief, everything is pure smoke, belief is the starting point. My experience is smoke to you as others’ are smoke to me so, I kind of understand your stand.
There’s no evidence that prayer works, as Brennen has said. When you say, “what counts is how people benefit”, you are already assuming there is some benefit, when studies have shown that there isn’t.
I am not assuming anything, I am primarely basing my statement on how I personally benefited from it. The other people statements are just icing on top of cake.
As for your question, “If their prayers never get answered why would they keep on praying?”, the answer is the same as with any ineffectual superstition: it’s because people believe false things. People believe the prayers are helping them, even though they are not.
there is absolutely no way to prove that. The only thing I can do to walk my talk is take a lie detector test, that’s about it. I agree many people are superstitious and stupid and even cunning, but as defective as the human being that I am, I am not one of those and neither are the many of the believers out there.
What remains is that you prayed and then you got better. This does not mean that prayer healed you. You would have gotten better with or without the prayer.
I was pinned to a bed for at least 2 days and my condition was getting worse by the mn, and I am very hectic person and very physical, I am not into that at all, after I stood, the following day I went to work, you are right, “I did get better” to remain low key about the whole thing.
Well, this is what people say when they have no reason to believe, when they notice it’s all a form of irrationality. I understand that move, but be aware that irrationality is quite dangerous. It will justify anything.
There are many people who are supposedly “rational”, yet think it’s perfectly fine to go to Iraq and continue sluttering innocent iraqis while bush is leasurely sucking Iraq’s resources on one hand and on the other letting the gaze prices continue to skyrocket across the US. Every group suffer a set of human defects and no one is exempt in this area Doug.
You’ve ignored most of my points, which of course faith leads one to do.
I didn’t ignore any, you didn’t like my answers.
If Jesus is the real and only god
When did I ever say He is the real and only god? I said few things that indicates I want to follow Him and emualte His philosophy and dealings because they appeal to me and I think they are the answer to our human problems, that’s about it. And again, by saying that I strictly mean to work and learn to demonstrate Him day and day out, this is my goal, I would never go anywhere near imposing Him on anyone.
and he made you better, why do people who pray to other gods get better? Why do people like me who don’t pray get better?Why do people who pray to Jesus not get better sometimes? You can’t just say “I don’t know but I know Jesus is the one god and made me better” without completely renouncing logic or reason and relying only on faith. Of course, you may choose to do that, and I won’t argue with faith. But you keep acting like what you are saying makes some logical or reasonable sense, and it doesn’t. You either accept ommon sense or ou accept faith an mystery, but you can’t have it both ways.
You keep on assuming I am going to say that and that based solely on what you have heard from others. I am me, not others. I have no problem with others praying to other gods, why would I?it’s their choices and lives. It was illogical for me to be able to stand that day after I’ve been paralysed for at least 2 days. Yes, based on the limited human logic and reason, it was. And I am grateful that it was because as result that disk appeared to somehow just move back into place as if nothing ever happened. Why do I have to worry about how did that happened? the point is my spine was not longer mostly paralyzed. I can only rejoice, call it anything you want, I don’t mind, the fact of the matter is the following day I went back to work.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m glad you feel better, and I never blame someone for being willing to try anything when they hurt. I just know in my heart that god had nothing to do with it,
...you “know in your heart”? ..."that g-o-d had nothing to do with it”?? and what does that supposed to mean? you knowing in your heart is called logic and when I do the same it’s called superstition? I thought you didn’t believe in god, and here you are talking about him as if you have reasons to believe he does in fact exist.
just as you know in your heart he did. I rely on reason, logic, and evidence a well as how I feel, you rely only on how you feel. That’s what faith is.
human reason and logic are not fully grown and matured. Both are still evolving. We all are still evolving. No one is in postion to make an absolute claim that god doesn’t exist or doesn’t heal. I give you that some believers are total cookes, so much so they’d for example pray for computer to be fixed or drop on their lap, being totally ignorant of the fact that the person or group of people that might have built it is a 1000% atheist, and then they turn around and say “god is good”!!!!!! Yes I do admit, we do have huge problems, I went through this phase already, I am still forced to acknowlege what happened to me last September. I cannot just dismiss it as a mere or banal concidence, it was too great to be in such way.
Daisy, couldn’t it have been a case of time and rest that helped your back get better and not some supernatural being? And similar to Brennen, who do your really know it was Jesus who healed you? Why not Vishnu, Buddha, YHWH himself, Bast, Joshua, Mithra, or even Amen Ra? Could it have been, in reality, a case of neurochemicals that shut down some of the pain, esp after you had plenty of rest? Or maybe the rest alone helped. Another question, how can you be absolutely sure you are not praying to yourself and IF you are so certain, how do you know you are not really praying to Mithra or Horus? (Um, no, I don’t believe in a historical Jesus, but that’s besides the point).
I don’t know these guys you’ve mentioned. I spoke to Jesus and to His mother. And thank you for asking those questions I really appreciate that. Up til the time I decided to try to stand to cook, the situation was getting worse and worse. I was moving frame by frame. If it was just me, the healing would have somewhat been progressive as in me starting to feel better that morning etc. up unitl around 7 pm that day, I was in such constant agony. The praying to myself is possibilty because before I started to go to skeptic sites, I used to have all sorts of spiritual dreams and experiences. After I’ve read few books and started talking to some really gnarly people at Michael Shermers site, all those dreams/experiences somehow just stopped. So in pondering I wondered if I was not subconsciously self projecting all that.
What happened to me here, did with me being atheist. The paralysis caused me to go back to Him out of desperation, I didn’t have choice. The physical torture, the progressive paralysis had me simply cornered.
Also, Doug is right, you would have gotten better with or without prayer, but like meditation, you could have stimulated chemicals in your brain to help you relax and thereby suppressing some of the pain you were having. Deep breathing, imagery, and alike has the same effect. The thing is, it was not adult letters to a Santa Claus god or a friendly ghost that helped you to get better. It happened on it own with a little help from rest. Maybe the paralysis you spoke of was your body’s way of telling you that you must stop and get some rest, whether you want to or not.
Back then I weighted 145 pounds, I went to gym and pulled 100 pound on one of the machines, that’s what caused the squeezing of the disk that got busted. I agree with what you said above, but my brain was too shot to be that creative and that optimistic. I love taking credit and bragging about things I can do, but not this time, I was too disabled, too desperate to have played any part in the healing process. I honestly don’t think I have.
At some point, our bodies can and do make us stop going and it happens all on it’s own. Even sleep deprived people body’s, which I was for a few days last week, force them to sleep whether they want to or not. No matter how hard they fight sleep to get things done, their body’s will eventually override the voluntary command and trigger involuntary commands that cannot be fought. The same could very well be applied to a sever injury as you described, all do to neurochemicals. Your body’s natural defenses will kick in, eventually, to preserve itself, if it can, forcing you to stop and rest. You got the rest and afterwards, your body’s nutritional reserves were depleted, in which you had to get nurishment in order to finish the healing.
again, I don’t believe it was the case and speaking of sleep, I didn’t sleep one night, that’s when I spent it talking to both of them throughout.
However, the 9 days of self-imposed fasting did your body more harm than good
Based on what evidence?
and a 21 day fast will also do your body damage. (BTW, that 14 lbs… mostly water.
no it wasn’t, I have body fat caliper, I checked my fat percentage along with the weight. I know I lost some of the muscle mass but also the fat. NO water has been lost since I did still eliminate every day. I drunk a liter of fluid everyday to prevent my body from dehydrating.
You’ll gain most of it back sooner than the number of days you fasted, if you have not already) That is another problem I have with religion- the effects it has on women. It can and quite often does cause anorexia (or some other eating disorder) and grown women can get an eating disorder. I know from past experience, as well as educating myself, and if you keep that up… Well, notice that first thing you said, after fasting, was that you lost 14 lbs and you are turning around and doing an even longer fast. You see where this is going? Eventually, you may think your god is “Jesus”, but in reality it will be something totally different- the numbers on the scale for example. It will rule your life and because you want to believe it is God influencing your life, it will become a vicious circle. In the end, you will hopefully realize what is happening or you’ll end up doing more damage to your body. You may think I’m exaggerating and denying your “Jesus/God”, but the truth is, that superstitious belief wasn’t the cure for your back and your praise with fasting isn’t going to help you. It will be a vicious cycle of fasting, illness, bed rest, prayers to be rescued because your back is worse again or you’re sick, getting better because you rested and hopefully ate, then back to fasting again in praise of what? In praise to what? In all honesty, I suggest bringing it back down to earth and start loving yourself and others. No, I mean for real, not because some sky deity told you to love others, while you neglect yourself on the side. The only person who can make you better is yourself, by listening to your body and all that fasting isn’t going to get it. It seems to me, you are giving control of your body to something that doesn’t even exist and will never exist. What loving god would want you to go without eating for 9 days, 21 days, or 40 days? I can’t imagine it and it’s pure insanity.
you are jumping to so many insane conclusions i can absolutely tell how much more you know than I do and how much logic and reason you use in making sense out things. . Speaking of evidence, you didn’t meet me once, you are more than clueless about the person I am, my history, my fitness, my bacground, and here you are blabbering away much like a believer yourself.
Daisy, couldn’t it have been a case of time and rest that helped your back get better and not some supernatural being? And similar to Brennen, who do your really know it was Jesus who healed you? Why not Vishnu, Buddha, YHWH himself, Bast, Joshua, Mithra, or even Amen Ra? Could it have been, in reality, a case of neurochemicals that shut down some of the pain, esp after you had plenty of rest? Or maybe the rest alone helped. Another question, how can you be absolutely sure you are not praying to yourself and IF you are so certain, how do you know you are not really praying to Mithra or Horus? (Um, no, I don’t believe in a historical Jesus, but that’s besides the point).
I don’t know these guys you’ve mentioned. I spoke to Jesus and to His mother. And thank you for asking those questions I really appreciate that. Up til the time I decided to try to stand to cook, the situation was getting worse and worse. I was moving frame by frame. If it was just me, the healing would have somewhat been progressive as in me starting to feel better that morning etc. up unitl around 7 pm that day, I was in such constant agony. The praying to myself is possibilty because before I started to go to skeptic sites, I used to have all sorts of spiritual dreams and experiences. After I’ve read few books and started talking to some really gnarly people at Michael Shermers site, all those dreams/experiences somehow just stopped. So in pondering I wondered if I was not subconsciously self projecting all that.
You haven’t heard of Horus, Krishna, Buddha, Vishnu, etc? Is the only religion you have looked into Christianity? I could explain, but I don’t want to derail the thread.
However, the 9 days of self-imposed fasting did your body more harm than good
Based on what evidence?
Medical science. Ask any doctor s/he will explain it to you, if you decide to ask.
You’ll gain most of it back sooner than the number of days you fasted, if you have not already) That is another problem I have with religion- the effects it has on women. It can and quite often does cause anorexia (or some other eating disorder) and grown women can get an eating disorder. I know from past experience, as well as educating myself, and if you keep that up… Well, notice that first thing you said, after fasting, was that you lost 14 lbs and you are turning around and doing an even longer fast. You see where this is going? Eventually, you may think your god is “Jesus”, but in reality it will be something totally different- the numbers on the scale for example. It will rule your life and because you want to believe it is God influencing your life, it will become a vicious circle. In the end, you will hopefully realize what is happening or you’ll end up doing more damage to your body. You may think I’m exaggerating and denying your “Jesus/God”, but the truth is, that superstitious belief wasn’t the cure for your back and your praise with fasting isn’t going to help you. It will be a vicious cycle of fasting, illness, bed rest, prayers to be rescued because your back is worse again or you’re sick, getting better because you rested and hopefully ate, then back to fasting again in praise of what? In praise to what? In all honesty, I suggest bringing it back down to earth and start loving yourself and others. No, I mean for real, not because some sky deity told you to love others, while you neglect yourself on the side. The only person who can make you better is yourself, by listening to your body and all that fasting isn’t going to get it. It seems to me, you are giving control of your body to something that doesn’t even exist and will never exist. What loving god would want you to go without eating for 9 days, 21 days, or 40 days? I can’t imagine it and it’s pure insanity.
you are jumping to so many insane conclusions i can absolutely tell how much more you know than I do and how much logic and reason you use in making sense out things. . Speaking of evidence, you didn’t meet me once, you are more than clueless about the person I am, my history, my fitness, my bacground, and here you are blabbering away much like a believer yourself.
Believer in what? Medical science and Psychology? That I do believe in and it is not insanity at all. Be that as it may, I do care about people and have seen so many people fall for religious dogma that when and if they do have a psychological problem they don’t realize it and get help- sometimes with tragic consequences. I saw this even before I got a psychology degree and part of acquiring that degree was in neuro-psych. I also know what happens in the mind when one is deprived of food (and/or sleep). They are more susceptable to suggestions, ideas, and dogma. This is one of the techniques cults use a lot. Regardless, I would not point out the damage one is doing to one’s health, if I didn’t care about others.
Even so, you never did answer my question as to “what loving god” would want you to fast like that, esp since it can have serious health consequences? You don’t have to take my word for it. You can ask a physician.
believe it or not. Before last september and prior to my brief atheistic escapade, I would usually be in mental argument with Him for like at least 50 % or the time. Label that what you wish I don’t mind.
Is the only religion you have looked into Christianity? I could explain, but I don’t want to derail the thread.
