For a while now I’ve had a feeling that if anything was to go “wrong” in Europe, we’ll most likely hear the name of Geert Wilders behind it. Here is his speech to the Dutch Parliament.

And here are some excerpts from the speech:

[The] first Islamic invasion of Europe was stopped at Poitiers in 732; the second in Vienna in 1683. Madam Speaker, let us ensure that the third Islamic invasion, which is currently in full spate, will be stopped too in spite of its insidious nature and notwithstanding the fact that, in contrast to the 8th and 17th centuries, it has no need for an Islamic army because the scared “dhimmis” in the West, also those in Dutch politics, have left their doors wide open to Islam and Muslims.

Madam Speaker, the Islamic incursion must be stopped. Islam is the Trojan Horse in Europe. If we do not stop Islamification now, Eurabia and Netherabia will just be a matter of time. One century ago, there were approximately 50 Muslims in the Netherlands. Today, there are about 1 million Muslims in this country. Where will it end? We are heading for the end of European and Dutch civilisation as we know it.

No Islamic tradition must ever be established in the Netherlands: not now and also not in a few centuries’ time.

Be courageous. Do what many Dutch citizens are screaming out for. Do what the country needs. Stop all immigration from Muslim countries, ban all building of new mosques, close all Islamic schools, ban burkas and the Koran. Expel all criminal Muslims from the country, including those Moroccan street terrorists that drive people mad. Accept your responsibility! Stop Islamification! 
Enough is enough, Mr Balkenende. Enough is enough.

Stop all immigration from Muslim countries, ban all building of new mosques, close all Islamic schools, ban burkas and the Koran. Expel all criminal Muslims from the country, including those Moroccan street terrorists that drive people mad.

I can agree with that. I’d add turn the church into museums, ban the christianity and declare the chicken meat not suitable for humans (well, I must admit it: the statement about the chicken meat can seems a whim, but it is no diferent from the other from my list and from his list)

I was reading a couple of things about this men: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders

I don’t understand how he can be an advocate for free speach and calls from the ban of Koran at the same time.

The problem with that, Barto, is that Wilders is not speaking out against religion, but against Islam. And even that is probably not the only thing he is after. He wants Muslims out of Europe.

He seems like an odious character. How can you ban the Koran, what a pathetic idea and a sure fire way of promoting the Koran is seeking to ban it. I agree with this wretched politician about the content of the Koran. As a book of ethics and truth the Koran stinks the place out but you can’t ban it. This guy is to the right of Attila the Hun.

He’s a nutter and his speech is hysterical.

It’s typical I would like to see more people openly criticising Islam but this buffoon is doing a great job of making the critics of Islam look like hysterical hate mongers. Now when people talk about the problems of Islam they will be categorised with this lunatic, he’s like Enoch Powell and Oswald Mosely on steroids.

I read the wiki page on him and all of his policies seem to come straight out of Texas. He is not a good liberal spokesman.

George, FWIW I was trying to be sarcastic. I think this character is against Islam for bad reasons. I can think in a lot of reasons to be worried about the Islam, but that there were more mosques than churches is not one of them. And baning Koran is not exactly a brilliant idea in order to protect us from an islamic theocracy: the religion bans never worked well and I don’t see why this time would be diferent.

Recently I was thinking in a good strategy against fundies who come from muslims countries (not very common here). The comentary on ‘Infidel’ on the last FI made me think in a strategy: encourage and help the muslim women to be free. In the muslims societies the males have the privileges and they enjoy the domestic power and a relative freedom (it is unlikely that people act against an order that they perceive as benefical), but the women really suffer. When they are in europe, tell them that the law protect them against domestic violence, encourage and help them to receive education, show them that they can be free, that they can be more than breeding machines. I think it can break the ‘domestic front’ in the muslim homes and could help to raise a generation of secular arabs.

Barto - 06 March 2008 06:40 PM

The comentary on ‘Infidel’ on the last FI made me think in a strategy: encourage and help the muslim women to be free.

I think I first read about the importance of women from third world countries being freed and educated in Sagan’s Billions and Billions. I certainly agree with it and frankly don’t see any other solution. And it needs to be done soon before Wilders or some other lunatic decides to bring back the “ultimate solution.” I wonder: when did Europe realize that Hitler was going to be a problem?

It will be interesting to see how much of a platform Wilders will find in the liberal/secularist wing of the “Clash of Civilizations” crowd.
It doesn’t take much imagination to see him holding hands with Hitchens and Harris under headlines like: “Bold advocate of free speech in Europe”, “Intrepid Questioner of PC Orthodoxies blah blah blah...”

George, I tend to believe that the people realize that a dictator is a trouble when they become his target. And the things are worst when the dictator raise the purchase power.

Balak, I think that is very unlikely to find in the secular humanist wing concern about the mosques outnumbering the christian churches.

brucepig - 06 March 2008 02:30 PM

He’s a nutter and his speech is hysterical.

I live in England and I’m shocked at how many people lean towards this type of nuttiness, that’s what is frightening.

Stephen

StephenLawrence - 08 March 2008 11:20 AM

brucepig - 06 March 2008 02:30 PM

He’s a nutter and his speech is hysterical.

I live in England and I’m shocked at how many people lean towards this type of nuttiness, that’s what is frightening.

Stephen

Well I live in England as well and I have to say it is rare in London. It goes so far that any criticism of Islam or Muslims gets you lumped straight in with the BNP. I don’t think we should persecute Muslims, ban the Koran and stop immigration but I do think I should be allowed to openly say that as a book of ethics and truth the Koran stinks. Currently that would earn me all the respect of a BNP candidate trying to campaign in Southall. My point is I agree with Sam Harris and Hitchens about the problems of Islam but I don’t go with Geert Wilders in his hysterical approach.

It depends on who you listen to, young Muslims will talk as if they are experiencing an oppresion akin to that experienced by Afro-Americans in the 40’s and 50’s. If you talk to the less devout older generation of Muslims they will tell you Britain is a tolorant society which allows them the freedom to practice their religion.

Many on the far right see the deep problems that reside in Islamic communities and doctrines as proof positive that they were right about the dangers of immigration and the evil nature of foreigners.

Many on the far left see fair criticism of Islamic culture or a police raid on suspected terrorists as proof positive of the racist nature of Western culture and the ulterior motives of a ruling class which is hoping to oppress a minority rightfully demanding an end to the imperialism that the ruling classes are involved in.

The fact is it is rightfully frowned upon to be a right wing loon, the same isn’t true for the far left. To believe that 911 was an inside job, that the corporations are pulling the strings, that America is a malevolant force and Islamophobia is the new anti-semiteism is quite a popular and respected way of thinking in Blighty.

What we need are people in the centre who are not afraid to openly criticise Islamic culture but also seeks to involve the secular minded people within the Muslim communities. At the moment dealing with the irrational ultra conservative ideology that is Islam is left to the far right. Thats not good.

I criticise Geert Wilders hysterical aproach but I do not think all is well in the house of Islam.

brucepig - 08 March 2008 12:55 PM

I do think I should be allowed to openly say that as a book of ethics and truth the Koran stinks.

Isn’t it just the same as the bible in these respects?

Stephen

StephenLawrence - 08 March 2008 01:08 PM

brucepig - 08 March 2008 12:55 PM

I do think I should be allowed to openly say that as a book of ethics and truth the Koran stinks.

Isn’t it just the same as the bible in these respects?

Stephen

Yes but the majority of Christians don’t believe that the Bible is the perfect unaltered, unalterable word of the creator of the universe. Plus if I say the Bible stinks I’m pretty safe from physical attack. If I openly say the Koran stinks I would have to watch my back.

There is a difference. How we deal with that difference is a debate we could have.

brucepig - 08 March 2008 01:16 PM

StephenLawrence - 08 March 2008 01:08 PM

brucepig - 08 March 2008 12:55 PM

I do think I should be allowed to openly say that as a book of ethics and truth the Koran stinks.

Isn’t it just the same as the bible in these respects?

Stephen

Yes but the majority of Christians don’t believe that the Bible is the perfect unaltered, unalterable word of the creator of the universe. Plus if I say the Bible stinks I’m pretty safe from physical attack. If I openly say the Koran stinks I would have to watch my back.

There is a difference. How we deal with that difference is a debate we could have.

I think most Christians do what most Muslims do, believe what they want to believe and disregard the rest.

I agree with you that there are more Muslim extremists that would physically attack you for saying certain things about their book than Christian extremists likely to do the same.

Stephen

StephenLawrence - 08 March 2008 01:41 PM

brucepig - 08 March 2008 01:16 PM

StephenLawrence - 08 March 2008 01:08 PM

brucepig - 08 March 2008 12:55 PM

I do think I should be allowed to openly say that as a book of ethics and truth the Koran stinks.

Isn’t it just the same as the bible in these respects?

Stephen

Yes but the majority of Christians don’t believe that the Bible is the perfect unaltered, unalterable word of the creator of the universe. Plus if I say the Bible stinks I’m pretty safe from physical attack. If I openly say the Koran stinks I would have to watch my back.

There is a difference. How we deal with that difference is a debate we could have.

I think most Christians do what most Muslims do, believe what they want to believe and disregard the rest.

I agree with you that there are more Muslim extremists that would physically attack you for saying certain things about their book than Christian extremists likely to do the same.

Stephen

Well the difference is many moderate Muslims think that criticism of Islam should be legislated against. We call a moderate Christian someone who sees the Bible as a metaphor and as such is open to criticism but mainstream Islam sees criticism as beyond the pale. Basically even the moderate Muslims are rarely moderate enough.

The press and the government should seek to have a dialogue with secular Muslims. The way in which the government and the media choose the devout Muslims as spokesmen for the Muslim community is a massive mistake.

brucepig - 08 March 2008 01:48 PM

Well the difference is many moderate Muslims think that criticism of Islam should be legislated against.

I wouldn’t define someone as moderate if they believed that. I’ve no idea how many Muslims do believe that.

The press and the government should seek to have a dialogue with secular Muslims. The way in which the government and the media choose the devout Muslims as spokesmen for the Muslim community is a massive mistake.

You may well be right, I really don’t know.

Stephen

StephenLawrence - 08 March 2008 01:08 PM

brucepig - 08 March 2008 12:55 PM

I do think I should be allowed to openly say that as a book of ethics and truth the Koran stinks.

Isn’t it just the same as the bible in these respects?

Stephen

Koran and the Bible are not the problem. The problem is the primitive culture of the Arab nations colliding with the more advanced European one. Wilders knows this and that’s why he is trying to criticize the book, and not the people. Were he to make a movie about the people from the Middle East, instead of the movie he is making about Koran, he would be attacked for being a racist and the fight would be over. He knows what he is doing.