Certainty
Posted: 15 March 2008 02:51 AM   [ Ignore ]
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For our ‘common sense’ use of the word certainty to makes sense does there have to be such a thing as absolute certainty?

Can I claim that I’m almost certain of something, with out it being possible to be absolutely certain?

Stephen

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Posted: 15 March 2008 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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StephenLawrence - 15 March 2008 02:51 AM

(1) For our ‘common sense’ use of the word certainty to makes sense does there have to be such a thing as absolute certainty?

(2) Can I claim that I’m almost certain of something, with out it being possible to be absolutely certain?

Stephen

You’ve asked two rather different questions, both really interesting.

The first question is very general: I think that evaluations like ‘less or more certain’ just entail the superlative ‘utterly certain’ - more generally, evaluations entail standards. That would take some argument of course.

But maybe we don’t need to know that standard (and maybe they don’t exist - that’s a common thing to deny nowadays, and my opinion is a minority among philosophers, FYI). You can compare[i/] one proposition with one you do accept as ‘sure’.

Something like this: “Well, I’m more sure physics is right than that you saw Caspar, a ghost, walk through a wall then pick up a knife.” After all, if he walked thru a wall then he doesn’t interact with matter, but there he is interacting with the matter of the knife, and so on. You might not be absolutely[i/] sure of physics, but you’re more sure of it than the observation of Caspar’s wall-walking and knife-handling. (Maybe you’d get generous and pick apart the conjunction: maybe the guy saw ‘a ghost’ but he was wrong about the wall part, or the knife part, or even the ghost part - it was a someone, ‘a Caspar’, but it was George in a ghost-costume with a cool new technological gadget.)

So you don’t have certainty, but you can have more or less uncertainty. There may still be[i/] real certainties, but they might not play a direct role in human knowledge, so it would be moot to say if we can have[i/] them. We might still pursue them. I want the[i/] theory of physics, the one that’s completely true in all specifics, not its close cousin - but i might only obtain at any time a theory close to the really right one.

On the second question, think of Newtonian physics. You, an 18th-century educated man, could naturally and justifiably be sure enough that it’s the best theory without ever claiming it’s right in every aspect - you might even acknowledge that there’s errors in it somewhere. Like the woman who writes a book, and after combing through it she can still say that ‘There’s errors in this book” but because she just doesn’t know which ones they are (or she’d have changed them!), the book stands correct enough as it is.

So you can be ‘sure’ of a sentence (or proposition, or a set of them like a theory - i’ve been using all of these a little loosely) without being equally sure of every part of it.

A skeptic about knowledge will have an attack for all of these.

Kirk

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Posted: 18 March 2008 06:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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StephenLawrence - 15 March 2008 02:51 AM

For our ‘common sense’ use of the word certainty to makes sense does there have to be such a thing as absolute certainty?

Can I claim that I’m almost certain of something, with out it being possible to be absolutely certain?

Stephen

Can you not be absolutely certain that you just posted this topic here on CFI?

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Posted: 18 March 2008 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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morgantj - 18 March 2008 06:54 AM


Can you not be absolutely certain that you just posted this topic here on CFI?

I think we can be absolutely certain that we as individuals honestly believe that we in fact just posted on here. There’s the Matrix problem where this all may be simply “sensed”, but may not actually be real. So I am absolutely certain that I believe I just typed this right now in this moment. After that, it would merely be a memory, which may possibly be inaccurate, but the experience of the ever present moment is where the certainty lies.

The question is if we can trust our senses to be accurate. But even if it weren’t and there would be no way to determine otherwise, then it wouldn’t really matter since our experience is all we have to draw upon. So if my body is in a capsule acting as a battery for a robot dominated reality, but I never realize it up until the point of death, then it doesn’t matter unless there’s something I can do about it.

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Posted: 18 March 2008 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Kaizen - 18 March 2008 05:24 PM
morgantj - 18 March 2008 06:54 AM


Can you not be absolutely certain that you just posted this topic here on CFI?

I think we can be absolutely certain that we as individuals honestly believe that we in fact just posted on here. There’s the Matrix problem where this all may be simply “sensed”, but may not actually be real. So I am absolutely certain that I believe I just typed this right now in this moment. After that, it would merely be a memory, which may possibly be inaccurate, but the experience of the ever present moment is where the certainty lies.

The question is if we can trust our senses to be accurate. But even if it weren’t and there would be no way to determine otherwise, then it wouldn’t really matter since our experience is all we have to draw upon. So if my body is in a capsule acting as a battery for a robot dominated reality, but I never realize it up until the point of death, then it doesn’t matter unless there’s something I can do about it.

But are we just simply sensing it? There is physical evidence that we are here now typing this. Even when we leave, the evidence will remain.

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Posted: 18 March 2008 06:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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morgantj - 18 March 2008 05:53 PM


But are we just simply sensing it? There is physical evidence that we are here now typing this. Even when we leave, the evidence will remain.

We may not just be simply sensing it (which I personally believe) and we may only be sensing it(which I believe is possible, but not probable). If we were only sensing it such as in the Matrix scenario, there’s no way you’d be able to tell since all the “evidence” is merely sensed as well. So in that scenario, the evidence that remains is actually just experiencing “evidence that remains” and is not in reality actually occurring.

To illustrate this further, if I get an outside confirmation from you that something is occurring, I’m merely sensing that you’re confirming it- you may or may not be real.

[ Edited: 18 March 2008 06:12 PM by Kaizen ]
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Posted: 18 March 2008 06:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Kaizen - 18 March 2008 06:03 PM
morgantj - 18 March 2008 05:53 PM


But are we just simply sensing it? There is physical evidence that we are here now typing this. Even when we leave, the evidence will remain.

We may not just be simply sensing it (which I personally believe) and we may only be sensing it(which I believe is possible, but not probable). If we were only sensing it such as in the Matrix scenario, there’s no way you’d be able to tell since all the “evidence” is merely sensed as well. So in that scenario, the evidence that remains is actually just experiencing “evidence that remains” and is not in reality actually occurring.

To illustrate this further, if I get an outside confirmation from you that something is occurring, I’m merely sensing that you’re confirming it- you may or may not be real.

But If I am not real, then what would there be for you to sense?

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Posted: 19 March 2008 02:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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StephenLawrence - 15 March 2008 02:51 AM

For our ‘common sense’ use of the word certainty to makes sense does there have to be such a thing as absolute certainty?

Can I claim that I’m almost certain of something, with out it being possible to be absolutely certain?

Unlike mathematical terms, our normal language terms seem to have an inherent degree of imprecision and vagueness to them - the plague of philosophy as one investigates what is actually meant by any given term!

There are a number of interrelated stances to take over “absolutetly certain” and without any further context I can just present some of the more significant ones.

1. Justified Rhetoric. There is nothing wrong with using rhetoric to emphasize a good argument - where one , when challenged, can provide reason and evidence to support an assertion. As such “absolutely certain” is a not just a rhetorical device to indicate the strength of what one is asserting but to also implicitly claim that one has the relevant arguments and evidence to support this claim.

2. Belief Strength: Very similar to (1) but there may not be the actual supporting reason and evidence behind it. This is just a way of saying how strongly one believes the assertion. It devolves to (1) when challenged, maybe.

3. Facts To quote Gould on this “‘fact’ can only mean ‘confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.’”

4. Probability Future events may have different probabilities of happening, however past events have either occurred or not with a value of 1 or 0 respectively. “absolutely certain” is just a way of stating these past events effects on what might happen. Of course one could be “absolutely certain “ of a future event and be wrong - these are really (1) or (2) type uses.

There may be other uses. The mistake is to go from any of these or similar pragmatic uses to thinking there is such an essence as “absoluteness” or an ideology as “absolutism”

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Posted: 19 March 2008 09:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Excellent summary, Kirk. Among the more cogent bits of defintion I’ve seen around here lately!

I think a lot of our philosophical discussions bog down in the notion that words can be given simple, unitary, universal definitions. This is a great example of the nuances in a seemingly simple phrase and how trying to “purify” it into a clear abstract concept can lead to incoherence.

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Posted: 19 March 2008 10:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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morgantj - 18 March 2008 06:54 AM
StephenLawrence - 15 March 2008 02:51 AM

For our ‘common sense’ use of the word certainty to makes sense does there have to be such a thing as absolute certainty?

Can I claim that I’m almost certain of something, with out it being possible to be absolutely certain?

Stephen

Can you not be absolutely certain that you just posted this topic here on CFI?

I think the answer has to be no, strangly I’m absolutely certain of that. The reason I think the answer is no is that as long as there might be another explanation for how the post got there and how my memory of posting it got there, then the answer is no.

Anyway I’m quite sure I posted and didn’t want to get into how can we be sure we know anything, or any stuff like that.

What I was wondering is if in principal I could say there is no such thing as 100% certainty and claim I was almost certain.

I’ll put the question this way: Does being almost certain depend on it being possible for me to be 100% certain? Or can I say I’m almost certain and still reasonably deny that I could be 100% certain?

Stephen

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Posted: 19 March 2008 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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morgantj - 18 March 2008 06:37 PM


But If I am not real, then what would there be for you to sense?

My own experience. In the same sense that I can imagine a pink elephant even though it doesn’t actually exist. The difference would be that I actually believe you exist in this case.

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Posted: 19 March 2008 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Kaizen - 19 March 2008 03:29 PM
morgantj - 18 March 2008 06:37 PM


But If I am not real, then what would there be for you to sense?

My own experience. In the same sense that I can imagine a pink elephant even though it doesn’t actually exist. The difference would be that I actually believe you exist in this case.

How can we both be figments of each others imaginations? That would take us both out of the picture. Why is it so hard to accept that we are both real?

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Posted: 20 March 2008 03:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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morgantj - 19 March 2008 05:49 PM


How can we both be figments of each others imaginations? That would take us both out of the picture. Why is it so hard to accept that we are both real?

It’s not difficult for me to accept this. I’m merely pointing out a possibility. And I think you’re misunderstanding my point. It wouldn’t make sense if we were both a part of each others imagination. However, it is conceivable from one person’s perspective that all that he/she is experiencing is a part of that individual’s imagination.

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