But we need to stop allowing muslims to get away with the, “Well you do it too” defence. Regardless of whether or not christians do or have done or jews do, continue to do or have done things, can never be a justification for THEIR behaving badly, suppressing freedom and so on. It simply does not wash.
But at least still doing it, is not good public relations.... I am not sure how the muslems see us: as devilish christian dogs, or devilish atheists. I think we must improve our communication with them, and that begins with not making insulting movies, or seeing their countries just as huge oil reservoirs, where human rights do not count. Do not forget that the US government is supporting the Saudi Arabian monarchy!
According to the Quran, they see us as “losers” and will burn in hell with the Christians and the Jews, who are also losers, not to mention the Quran teaches that Jews are apes and pigs. I find that book very vile, violent, prejudice, bigotted, etc etc. I seriously doubt anyone here is going to say to me, “Oh but you are not reading it right and don’t understand it” or what have you. That is the LAMEST crap I have ever heard. I find many Muslims to be brainwashed idiots or at least the ones I run into on the net after describing their raunchy book.
I have lived in four different countries and I know how difficult it can be sometimes to adjust to a new way of thinking. At other times the change was more than welcoming: a little things like people lining up to exit the train station; in Prague or Madrid the subways are a complete jungle and I feel truly embarrassed when I go back and I realize how primitive my culture is compared to the one of North America. I also remember when I once tried to pass a car on the Autobahn by his right (as opposed to his left), something normally practiced in Canada, and quickly realized (after the German drivers started hysterically honking their horns), that I was acting in a totally unacceptable way. I was ashamed of my misbehavior and I never made the same mistake again. I was never sure what people refer to they talk about human rights. Am I to let the Germans know that in Canada it is okay to pass cars on the right and it is therefore my right (since I am now a Canadian and passing on the right is a part of my culture) to engage in this behaviour on the Autobahn? And if I am merely a “moderate” who doesn’t drive this way and only believes it’s okay to pass on the right, I should still expect my beliefs to be challenged.
Then how do you think we should go forward? Please, understand me, I am not saying that I share the ideas as you find them in the Koran, I am talking about how to cope with moslems: some of them are islamists, a lot of them are moderates. What is the right strategy? Just react on the loudest ones, and yell back to them they are the pigs?
Take one of the citations done by Wilders:
[quote author="Sura 8:60"]Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies
Sounds terrible, isn’t it?
But one verse later:
[quote author="Sura 8:61"]But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Of course, you do not hear that in Wilders’ movie, it would take the sting out of it.
Thinking that an old book like the Koran has only one interpretation, and that there are no moslems who have a a more peaceful interpretation of it, is the LAMEST crap I have heard. (Wups, I can yell too...). There are also a lot of christians who do not take the bible literally. Would you like to push them in the direction of fundamentalist christians?
[quote author="Umberto Eco"]A book is a machine to generate interpretations.
So the only thing I am saying, is that it is possible to see the Koran as a holy book, and still be moderate. In a certain respect, Islamists and Wilders do the same: they take only the radical sentences. In order to get rid of extremism, you must look for the people you can at least talk with, and not generalise all the moslems as agressors.
I am an atheist as you are, but it does not help to alienate the people you would like to convince. Of course, everybody, every country may defend itself when it is attacked, or its society destroyed, but do not ever forget the (long term) strategy. Wilders does not help at all. Same of course for the islamists.
The overall strategy I propose would contain things like ‘understand why these people react in these horrible ways, and find the best way to stop them’. This could mean hard defense in certain situations, if nothing else is open, but not necessary.
(Sorry I seem to take the guild of Wilders on my head, I am dutch too...)
GdB: Wilders does not help at all. Same of course for the islamists.
In fact, their activities are mutually reenforcing. Which is why I find it so disgusting that self-described ‘humanists’ buy in to this racist ‘collective guilt’ paradigm (implicitly or explicitly on the side of U.S. imperialism) rather than seeking to combat it.
[quote author="Sura 8:61"]But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
Of course, you do not hear that in Wilders’ movie, it would take the sting out of it.
No, it doesn’t take the sting out of it, because I see it as an in door for them.
Thinking that an old book like the Koran has only one interpretation, and that there are no moslems who have a a more peaceful interpretation of it, is the LAMEST crap I have heard. (Wups, I can yell too...). There are also a lot of christians who do not take the bible literally. Would you like to push them in the direction of fundamentalist christians?
Actually, given that my mother is a Fundamentalist Christian, I find her more tolerable than those who scream Jihad at the mere refusal of Islam. My mother, as well as her family, and I have never agreed concerning religion, but not once have they threatened death. Yell back at Muslim extremists? No, that won’t help, but not appeasing them in countries that are a democracy is a start.
So the only thing I am saying, is that it is possible to see the Koran as a holy book, and still be moderate. In a certain respect, Islamists and Wilders do the same: they take only the radical sentences. In order to get rid of extremism, you must look for the people you can at least talk with, and not generalise all the moslems as agressors.
I don’t even see the Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Gita, etc as holy books. Rather they are filled with stories, some nicer than others, some not so nice, but I found nothing but vile in the Quran. IF I believed in book burning, which I do not, that would be the first book in the fire.
The overall strategy I propose would contain things like ‘understand why these people react in these horrible ways, and find the best way to stop them’. This could mean hard defense in certain situations, if nothing else is open, but not necessary.
Simple- they’ve been brainwashed to react as they do. I think, even if it is murder in the name of religion, they too should spend a lifetime in prison for murder, but I do not advocate the death sentence for anyone. If they blow something up in the name of their religion, they should get the same sentence as anyone else who blows something up for whatever reason. IF they beat their wives, they too should go to jail just as any other man would.
(Sorry I seem to take the guild of Wilders on my head, I am dutch too...)
GdB
Sorry about that, but here in the U.S. arson, bomb threats, rape, spouse abuse, murder etc have consequences in a court of law. Irregardless of religion, creed, race, etc people are held accountable for their actions and receive the consequences for them if they commit these crimes. Therefore, if a Muslim extremist were to do any of those things, even kill their daughter regardless of the reason, they receive legal consequences. Sometimes religious views are taken into consideration, but it is rare on those issues. In some cases, even parents who deny medical treatment for their children on religious grounds or even incest issues are investigated for child abuse and/or neglect by Children’s Services, even then there are sometimes consequences. So, yes, I think even Muslims should be held accountable to the law of the land.
Sorry about that, but here in the U.S. arson, bomb threats, rape, spouse abuse, murder etc have consequences in a court of law. Irregardless of religion, creed, race, etc people are held accountable for their actions and receive the consequences for them if they commit these crimes.
Laws against murder, torture, rape etc rarely seem to apply to U.S. military personnel, intelligence operatives and contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan (not to mention the massive bloodshed falling under the euphemism of ‘collateral damage’).
Sorry about that, but here in the U.S. arson, bomb threats, rape, spouse abuse, murder etc have consequences in a court of law. Irregardless of religion, creed, race, etc people are held accountable for their actions and receive the consequences for them if they commit these crimes. Therefore, if a Muslim extremist were to do any of those things, even kill their daughter regardless of the reason, they receive legal consequences. Sometimes religious views are taken into consideration, but it is rare on those issues. In some cases, even parents who deny medical treatment for their children on religious grounds or even incest issues are investigated for child abuse and/or neglect by Children’s Services, even then there are sometimes consequences. So, yes, I think even Muslims should be held accountable to the law of the land.
Nothing to sorry about. It is already late here, so just this reaction.
I fully agree, that we should stand for what we believe in: if moslems live in western country, they should be held accountable to the law. We believe in freedom of religion, don’t we? So they must accept that too. If they can’t, they should leave. If somebody, in a non insulting way, explains what he thinks of Islam, then a moslem must accept this. But at least we should try this: being not insulting, explain our view, but accept when the moslem keeps his view, as long as he does not break the law, and preaches hate himself.
Nothing to sorry about. It is already late here, so just this reaction.
I fully agree, that we should stand for what we believe in: if moslems live in western country, they should be held accountable to the law. We believe in freedom of religion, don’t we? So they must accept that too. If they can’t, they should leave. If somebody, in a non insulting way, explains what he thinks of Islam, then a moslem must accept this. But at least we should try this: being not insulting, explain our view, but accept when the moslem keeps his view, as long as he does not break the law, and preaches hate himself.
Amen.
GdB
I can’t argue with that and as long as they don’t impose their beliefs on me, we will be fine. If they can live by our laws and live as we do, then they can stay, but if not then they need to go where they can live as they wish to live.
Just one point of misunderstanding: I do not see these books as holy (even if there is at least some interesting stuff in it). But believers do. And still, there is a lot of interpretation around, and we should not close our eyes to that, even if we think that on close reading these books are terrible. Raging about the Koran might tear the communication line with the more liberal moslems. Think about a strategy getting right, not indulge in your believing that you are right.
BTW, Wilders used one of the Mohammed cartoons of the danish cartoonist without asking permission. Now this cartoonist made a cartoon about Wilders.
Well, I’m not sure what there is to say then. Silence about the matter can be just as bad. Sometimes the old saying, “If you can’t say nothing nice, don’t say anything” can be just as bad. Thing is, I have nothing good to say about Islam, but I’m not going to keep quiet about it. I’m not so sure there are any “liberal Muslims”. Islam isn’t a liberal religion.
OK I have seen Wilder’s film and it is rather blunt. Also he goes onto call for the banning of the Koran whilst supporting freedom of speech!!!!!!
His message is confused, a tad hysterical and extreme but he is not a Nazi as many Leftists would like us to believe.
I think Geert Wilders is wrong in his approach but his film is in no way outrageous.
He is right. Muslim violence and intolerance spring from the well of the Koran, as the purveyors of the violence keep telling us.
The question is why do so many people refuse to listen?
As for Scott Atran and others who say that Muslim violence and intolerance has nothing to do with Islam they are just plain wrong.
You don’t hear Muslim extremists banging on about Western Imperialism like a stuck record, like our dear Balak.
Muslim extremists bang on about the superiority of Islam and the rewards that await zealous Muslims in paradise, Western imperialism is just an after thought for them.
As for the idea that we should criticise but not offend, well that is the whole point. In Islam criticism is offensive. The Koran is the perfect word of the creator of the universe, end of argument. If you challenge that assumption or challenge an Islamic dogma you cause offence. Islam is hermetically sealed, to argue against Islam is to blaspheme and blasphemy is the ultimate offence. It will anger the creator and his earthly followers. If we must avoid offending Muslims then we must conform to Islamic taboos and defer to the religion of Islam. We MUST act as if Islam is sacred or offence will be taken.
That is one of the main reasons why this whole debate is raging. Not because of some latent racism as Balak would like to tell you but because Muslims extremist and moderate alike take offense at mere criticism. Just saying that Mohammad was not perfect and that the Koran is a badly written book is enough to anger many moderate Muslims. If it is important that we do not offend people then we must all start conforming to strict Islamic taboos immediately or offence is bound to occur.
I do not want to ban the Koran and stop immigration. I just want to openly be able to say that Mohammad was a pedophile and the Koran is hateful ignorance without being attacked by Muslims or denounced as racist by my fellow Leftists.
The solution to this whole situation is conversation.
Take the violent extremists out of the equation and we still have a debate.
We still have conflicting ideologies. Liberal democratic society is the antithesis of the Islamic world view.
If we have peaceful communities who say that the Koran is the perfect word of god, Mohammad must not be criticised and that they hope to revive blasphemy laws and bring about some form of Sharia through the democratic system then we have a argument.
Even if they only want Sharia and blasphemy laws to apply to their community and not the wider community, we have an argument. In a liberal democracy we should not have ultra conservative ghettos where persecuting apostates is allowed and wife beating tolerated. In a liberal democracy universal human rights apply to everyone, white, black, Christian, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, atheist everyone without exception. Not one rule for us and another for you.
Liberal values and Islamic values are opposed so lets have the debate.
I have no time for the arrogant Trotskyites, anti capitalists, anti imperialists who have such an inflated view of themselves that they carry all of the crimes of our forefathers on their shoulders. These buffoons are incapable of defending liberal values because for them liberal values are just another stick which racists use to beat poor brown people with. Anyone who thinks like this should not be taken seriously.
May I start to congratulate you with your ‘Avatar’? Did you make it yourself?
To the contents: I think it is important not to have a mono-causal view on Islam extremism. The Koran is of course a welcome source for war rethoric, I see that too, but I also see that some of the citations of it are taken out of context, and also see that a lot of moslems are not so war like. So speaking about THE cause of terrorism and THE Islam is beside the point, it is just to essentialistic. Compare it to war: trying to win a war is not just shooting and bombing because the enemy is bad. There was opposition agains Nazism in Germany itself, and in war plans one should think about how to use their potential.
So coping with the Islam should also show nuances: of course, defend against the terrorists, do not let run over you, stand for your (human) rights, but still see what the background is, and try to use this knowledge. Understanding does not mean accepting or even agreeing with them! Understanding is the beginning for acting. It is an open door that suppression greeds opposition, I assume?
And you are mentioning liberal values: I hope these values are not just for fellow Americans? I wrote it before: the US government supports absolut, oppressing monarchic regimes in the middle east. The 911 terrorists were Saudis, and not supported by the government. The Koran is not the sole and only explanation of the extremism.
About Wilders movie: you are right, it could have been much worse. He is just relating agressive citations of the Koran with terroristic acts, and with agressive imams. So he does more or less the same as the moslem extremists do themselves. They should not be insulted by the film. But I still hold, that more moderate moslems might be insulted, as the movie is suggesting that every moslem is a potential terrorist. And of course, a lot of moslems are possibly protesting against the movie without seeing it.
I find that book very vile, violent, prejudice, bigotted, etc etc. I seriously doubt anyone here is going to say to me, “Oh but you are not reading it right and don’t understand it” or what have you. 
