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How should we think of intelligence? 
Posted: 25 March 2008 11:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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I guess knowing more than one language could stimulate a brain on a different level. I saw a pbs program last week that talked about how when neurons fire together, new synapses get created rendering the brain more complex in how it interact, reasons etc.

[ Edited: 25 March 2008 12:06 PM by Daisy ]
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Posted: 25 March 2008 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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JRM5001 - 25 March 2008 10:39 AM

Occam, how many languages does your family know? 

If you know Latin, you and your parents could stage a real language play on the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.

Sorry, JRM, but since I’m 77 and both my parents are dead, my family is reduced to just English.  Damn, I missed my chance at Broadway.  LOL

Occam

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Posted: 28 April 2008 05:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Just to throw in a little divertissement, are any of you familiar with Howard Gardner’s Multiple Intelligence Theory?

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Posted: 28 April 2008 06:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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erasmusinfinity - 28 April 2008 05:02 AM

Just to throw in a little divertissement, are any of you familiar with Howard Gardner’s Multiple Intelligence Theory?

Yeah, I read his ‘Frames of Mind’. Found it quite convincing: it is clear that some people are very good in one kind of thing, others at others. Gardner is supporting his ideas with the effects of brain damage, with examples of brain scans, idiot savants etc. He recognises 7 kinds of intelligence: Visual/Spatial Intelligence, Musical Intelligence, Verbal/Linguistic Intelligence, Logical/Mathematical Intelligence, Interpersonal Intelligence, Intrapersonal Intelligence, and Bodily/Kinesthetic Intelligence. Before people are critising this idea, first tell us if you read the book…

What do you think, Erasmus?

GdB

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Posted: 28 April 2008 07:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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GdB - 28 April 2008 06:46 AM

Bodily/Kinesthetic Intelligence

I doesn’t know much, but I can run very fast. In other words: I am a genius. grin

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Posted: 28 April 2008 08:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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George - 28 April 2008 07:56 AM

I doesn’t know much, but I can run very fast. In other words: I am a genius. grin

You did not read the book, George. cheese

GdB

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Posted: 28 April 2008 08:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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I think that Gardner’s choice of categories for different intelligences is reflective of his values in a way.  The same sort of way that more traditional models of intelligence measure a certain aptitude that must, first and foremost, be valued as useful to be measured.  I think that Gardner contributes much to the discussion of intelligence simply because he points to the fact that there is more than one dimension to brain muscle.  In other words, there is one more way to be clever.

I do also think that the traditional Stanford-Binet measure of intelligence can have usefulness.  While, like some who have commented about this sort of intelligence in this thread, I think that the value of what is being measured is often stretched beyond usefulness in societal application.  Specifically, the Stanford-Binet measures a persons ability and speed in performing a specific sort of logical function.  This usefully measures that particular skill, in and of itself, but may not say so much about a persons ability to mentally process certain other sorts of activities.

I certainly think that logical intelligence is useful, and I also think that interpersonal intelligence, intrapersonal intelligence, and bodily/kinesthetic intelligence, etc. are useful.  To go further, I don’t see why Gardner even needed to stop at seven intelligences.  One can quantitatively measure aptitude for any sort of function that one deems worthwhile to measure.

The study of intelligence should be used as a tool in assessing individuals strengths and weaknesses in order to assist them.  But it should never be used as a means of competitively ranking individuals in society.  Performance is what counts.

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Posted: 28 April 2008 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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GdB - 28 April 2008 08:04 AM

George - 28 April 2008 07:56 AM

I doesn’t know much, but I can run very fast. In other words: I am a genius. grin

You did not read the book, George. cheese

GdB

No, I didn’t read it. But I use it as a barbell.  LOL

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Posted: 28 April 2008 10:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Cute George.  I enjoy your humor, but Gardner’s proposal of bodily/kinesthetic intelligence is not referring to athletic performance.  It refers to a mental capacity that can be observed in such skills as dance or drawing or sculpture.  Aren’t you a graphic artist of some sort?  Have you not noticed that certain people have certain mental aptitudes in your area and in the plastic arts, and that some people struggle quite a bit more to perform in these areas?  Is it not uncommon to refer to these sorts of natural mental abilities with words such as talent?  Traditionally, in the area of musical intelligence, Mozart has quite often been referred to as a “genius” for his inborn musical abilities.

There is value in recognizing these dimensions.  Also, certain aptitudes are also connected with other aptitudes.  For example, musical intelligence is quite often connected to mathematical ability.  There are also savants who have tremendous mental gifts in one capacity or another and much difficulty in other areas.

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Posted: 28 April 2008 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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I agree with what you’re saying, Erasmus. I am just not sure if “intelligence” is the right word to use when it comes to talent. I understand that one part (or many parts) of the brain can be responsible for the gift of a mathematical genius, and similarly different successful regions of the brain might produce a very handy plumber. But I just wouldn’t call a very handy plumber a kinesthetically intelligent one. That’s all.

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Posted: 28 April 2008 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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OK.  Well then it’s really just a semantic matter then isn’t it?

So, then what does the ability to recognize that the pattern 2.. 3… 5… 8… 13… is completed by 21 have to do with one’s abilities to make sober decisions about matters of religion or pseudoscience or, most importantly, how to contribute meaningfully in society?  Is the person with the highest Stanford-Binet score necessarily the best person for any particular job?

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Posted: 28 April 2008 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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I suppose the short answer would be no. But I am not sure I know who does contribute “meaningfully” in society. If Hitler didn’t contribute his evil to our society, I would probably never got to exist. His evil contribution has been meaningful to me. I know about luck, I am not sure I know what meaningful is.

Also, a burger flipper at McDonald’s can prepare my burger, and a cardiologist will fix my heart. They are both important to me, and to our society. But it would be much easier to train a cardiologist to work at McDonald’s than the other way around. It really does seem as if recognizing the numerical pattern (a task surely completed faster by a cardiologist than a burger flipper) can show us who can contribute (more?, better?, more meaningfully?) to our society.

I don’t know, Erasmus. I am confused.

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Posted: 28 April 2008 01:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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I have read all 42 posts in this thread. The subject is fascinating, to say the least. I have no answers to the questions regarding what intelligence is or what influences it. I know Pinker’s genetic studies are scientifically respected, and I love to listen to him speak.

Like most things, it is troubling when one’s intuition doesn’t line up with some given research. Parents have no influence? Ouch!

I spent two years teaching 7th & 8th grade math. I think the strangest thing I will ever see is the ease with which some students get straight A’s in EVERY subject while others work their asses off just to get by - or fail. Are there seven types of intelligence? I don’t know. It would be handy to have one type for each day of the week I suppose.

Back in ‘82 I was part of an AI lab. My grandmother told her friends I worked in Artificial Insemination. Back then the big questions were whether intelligence is modular (Chomsky) or unitarian (Anderson) and whether language was like the other forms of intelligence. Today we know of specific genes that will increase our IQ scores by ten points (according to Pinker) but those genes also place us in wheel chairs. Fascinating stuff.

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Posted: 28 April 2008 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Well, I finally got around to reading Pinker’s Blank Slate. Brilliant book, I have to admit, very cogent. I’ve been gradually giving up my “nurture” biases little by little over the years, but he gave me a pretty solid, definitive shove onto the “nature” side of things.

Now as far as intelligence and genes, which we were talking about earlier in the thread, I do think the distinction between what determines a mental ability and what controls the variance between groups of people in such an ability is still key to understanding what Pinker, and the research he bases his arguments on, really means. I am still skeptical that we know exactly what we’re measuring with a standard IQ test, or that it’s as useful as some claim in predicting the things we want to predict-potential to do well academically, in the job market, and so on. But clearly we are measuring something repeatable and real, and the variation between people in whatever that is is dominated by genes, that I now have to concede. Of course, as he points out, if genetics accounts for 30-70% of the variance, something else must account for the rest. It sounds like he suspects a lot of it is random developmental events, but I’m not sure he proved that case. He did demonstrate pretty clearly that early home/family environment ain’t it, at least barring extremely abusive or impoverished environments. In any case, I’m willing to concede that the “intelligences” we’ve been talking about are probably determined more by genes than any other single factor, and that does have some pretty big and interesting implications for social policy, which I think he only touched on lightly in the book.

Pinker was also pretty clear that the variance measures he is talking about apply to group averages, so acknowledging differences in specific mental abilities on average between groups is not a justification for stereotyping or discriminating against individuals based on their group membership. So whether males and females or various ethnic groups do or do not differ on average in one ability or another doesn’t guide us in how we treat any particular individual, for both practical and moral reasons. I think this is a very important nuance to keep in mind when talking about such group differences, since it’s easy to slide into vague or sloppy language like “Group X is better at Y than Group Z,” and basing a whole lot of bad decisions on that idea.

And then there’s his case about the influence of parenting behavior on how kids turn out. I have to say I found his chapter on that subject very pursuasive. I think it is clear that beyond genes and basic material support, the only thing parents do that substantively affects their childrens’ development is choosing the circumstances that will determine who their peer group is. I’ve generally believed for a long time that unless you go out of your way to screw up your kids, they’re likely to be fine regardless of what you do, and I think his data and arguments support that.

I also agree with him when he says quite clearly that this does not imply that how you interact with your kids is meaningless. To say that this is the logical consequence of the importance of genetics in personal development is like saying that life in the absence of God is meaningless. The religious believe it, but it is manifest nonsense easily refuted. Apart from what he decribes as a “moral duty” to care for your children, and the natural and undoubtedly evolutionarily derived impulse most parents have to care for their children, he makes a strong case that whether or not you can influence their ultimatge mental abilities, your interactions with your kids are important for psychological and emotional reasons, for the nature of the relationship you have with them now and in the future, and for the nature of the attitudes and ideas they will have about the world. You may not be able to change their ability to think, but up until peer group takes over about adolescence, you have a lot of influence on the content of their thoughts. And, finally, I really appreciated his comments about how much better it is to see our kids as persons in their own right from the very beginning, rather than as lumps of silly putty to be shaped into the form we think best. The anxiety, the silliness, and the outright harm of so much of the parenting technique industry that could be avoided just by understanding some real facts about how the mind works and develops is enormous, I’m sure.

Great read, and I’m currently trying to force it on everyone I know. Thanks, George and Doug, for pointing me to it. grin

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Posted: 28 April 2008 02:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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mckenzievmd - 28 April 2008 02:46 PM

Great read, and I’m currently trying to force it on everyone I know. Thanks, George and Doug, for pointing me to it. grin

Hey you’re very welcome! Glad you enjoyed the book. I also thought it was brilliant. (Which isn’t the same as being sure he had all the answers, just that he had some very interesting questions and a lot of interesting data).

grin

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