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Red Meat Is Good For You!
Posted: 24 February 2011 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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DM,

Sure, you can mock whatever you like in whatever way amuses you. Free country and all that. Still, mockery and satire can be powerful weapons of social critique, or they can be self-absorbed and juvenile polemic. I don’t see any particular insight or constructive purpose in your mockery other than that you find people who care about something you don’t silly and/or irritating and you like to make fun of them.
It seems like your standards here are usually higher.

We’ve had this debate about the merits of vegetarianism before, and it ultimately always seems to come down to some people think there is an ethical issue to care about and others don’t. You can read Singer and Rollin and other contemporary philosophers’ discussions of the ethical/moral issues and how they parse them and make up your own mind. There are intersting and sophisticated debates about these things. But if you’re inclined to think that humans are basically special and entitled to do more or less as they feel like to other animals, then all those debates will seem like a waste of time and energy. I’ve never found a way of using rational argument to convince someone that eating animals had any meaningful ethical dilemmas associated with it if they didn’t already have some emotional inclination to feel that it does. Like most morality, it seems mostly relative to what we feel/want/believe.

So I have don’t any interest in promoting vegetarianism, especially to people who’ve already decided there’s nothing there to discuss. It’s a bit like trying to deconvert the fundamentalist. But I will say that making fun of people just because they care about something you don’t, especially when they aren’t exactly shoving it in your face around here, is a bit gratuitous and mean-spirited. You’re entitled to do it, of course, but I’m entitled to point out how it strikes me as well, FWIW (which isn’t much).

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Posted: 25 February 2011 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Well, I don’t suppose that the vegetarian idea is wrong, environmental benefits, ethically that’s just favoring the animal species over the plant species which is just cherry-picking in my eyes, but the nutrition isn’t quite there.  Occam pointed out that B-12, iron, and others are low or absent.  So nutritionally it seems worse, unless you want to depend on supplements rather than food.  How would the farm animals be treated if everyone really switched, they wouldn’t be welcome on farms anymore? 

And beef is a nutritious meat, but tough and leathery, full of injections that no-one really wants to eat, deceptive coloring to hide its age, and the high pricing for cuts that are all basically the same, most people choosing scrap meat, etc.  Veal is a bad idea, the cows couldn’t survive if everyone ate the 6 month young cows.  It’s not all that great.  Less fat now-a-days, well that’s just a small improvement.

I do prefer fish and chicken anyway, they are tender.  With the pollution and the tight coops and over-fishing, I don’t know if they are any better choice, nutritionally I suppose so.

The plants aren’t treated well, if you judge them with the same standards as the animals.  If they should have room to grow, root, sun, water, and spread their seeds, then today’s practices are far from it.  Cooped tight together, their growth is restrained sometimes, farmers have moved away from seeds towards grafting, their force to grow with hydroponic, pesticides and herbicides are spread,  they are plucked from the vine when immature and unripened, the breeding has been highly influenced by humans.  But I doubt anyone wants to sympathize with the plant species, so maybe that’s just a waste of text.

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Posted: 25 February 2011 05:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Where to start?  There’s a lot to cover.
BFH, Mck, and Mriana, I didn’t take a jab at vegetarians and vegans for any reason other than that they’re who first popped into my head after reading the article.  I read it, found it interesting, and decided to take a jab at the first related group that popped into my head.  (Like I usually do.)  I could just as easily had said, “There you go, you meat eating fatties.  Now you can further rationalize and justify your killing and heart clogs.  Have fun with your heart attacks!”  But that idea didn’t hit me until, well, just now.  I pretty much just ran with it after that.

On to the more specific responses:
BFH, I’m a cynical, cynical man with a darkly sardonic sense of humor.  I get the most amusement out of poking at those with strong convictions.  In all seriousness though, I respect your convictions.  I don’t necessarily disagree with you on a whole lot.  Some things, sure.  But not everything.  Anyway, I hope you’ll accept my honesty apology.

Mck, if I were to claim a constructive purpose behind my little jabs, I’d have to say it would be something along the lines of highlighting the rich sources of protein and nutrients that vegetarians cut from their diets.  And to give a nice tweak in the eye to the ones that rail about how unhealthy meat is.  Anyway, I don’t really think humans are special in the religious sense, but, compared to other animals, we are something special.  We have culture, art, philosophy, abstract reasoning, and much more than other animals don’t.  I’m sorry, I just don’t think other animals are equal to humans.  I don’t think they should suffer and I have a hell of a lot of criticisms for the meat industry, but at the same time I don’t think animals should be treated like our equals or sacred objects off limits to our use.  And blah blah blah, neither of us really wants to get into this.

And finally:
For all you guys know, I’m screwing with you and I’m a vegan who thinks it’s funny to mock his own.  Wouldn’t that be a kick?  tongue wink

P.S.
This whole “discussion” and response has gotten me thinking about how people always think it’s funny (or at least permissible) when someone’s mocking those they disagree with (or are at least neutral toward), but then get all indignant and defensive when that same person starts poking fun at them.

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Posted: 25 February 2011 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Vegans have to be careful not to sound sanctimonious.  If they do, they are setting themselves up as targets for mockery.

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Posted: 25 February 2011 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Years ago I was eating two or three servings of meat a day.  Then I read some nutritional information, found that I was doing just about everything wrong smile, and revised my diet top-to-bottom.  Now I see that beans are high in low fat protein and dietary fiber, just what an American like me needed.  smile  So now I only eat one or no servings of meat per day, I it’s better that way.  Beans are so cheap, and that’s how most of the world gets their protein.

Mocking the vegetarians is sinking pretty low, that’s cheap.  Boo on the National Pork Board for their slogan.

Mocking royalty, on the other hand, is just good democratic fun!  How many Libyans does it take to kick Kadaffi’s ass?  I’ll bet we’ll find out soon!  With Kadaffi’s money frozen, how do you think he’ll pay for his missiles?  I think that his people will make him pay through the teeth for his missles!  grin

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Posted: 25 February 2011 10:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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BFH I don’t see how murdering plant life is any better. It too is trying to survive.

Is it me or do Vegans always seem to smell funny?

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Posted: 26 February 2011 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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BFH - 20 February 2011 07:04 PM

Even if eating meat were the healthiest choice - and I believe there’s far more evidence that it’s not - I am still ethically opposed to taking an animal’s life and consuming its flesh, or even keeping it alive to drink its milk.

ok maybe killing animals can be considered unethical at some points , but what’s the point of not drinking the cow’s milk ? I don’t get it


curious question :

Why all the vegetarians are skinny , I have not seen a vegetarians with an athletic body, is it because they don’t eat meat ?
smile

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Posted: 26 February 2011 10:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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jump_in_the_pit - 25 February 2011 02:15 PM

Ethically, that’s just favoring the animal species over the plant species which is just cherry-picking in my eyes…

Plants are not sentient.

jump_in_the_pit - 25 February 2011 02:15 PM

...but the nutrition isn’t quite there… B-12, iron, and others are low or absent.

This is a myth.

B-12 deficiencies are not exclusively a vegan phenomenon, a matter of cases not related to veganism, but individual circumstances like pernicious anemia or parasitic infection. In fact, the human body only needs a few micrograms of B-12 a day at most, and stores it for years. Vegans can get B-12 in mushrooms or cereal or nutritional yeast. As for iron, vegans and vegetarians have no higher incidence of iron deficiency than in the omnivore population, and can obtain iron in beans, leafy greens, nuts, and even tofu.

Dead Monky - 25 February 2011 05:51 PM

BFH… I hope you’ll accept my honesty apology.

We’re cool! My objection was philosophical, not personal.

brightfut - 25 February 2011 07:33 PM

Vegans have to be careful not to sound sanctimonious.  If they do, they are setting themselves up as targets for mockery.

That could be said about anybody. Skeptics. Atheists. Non-smokers. Anybody who has a cause, anybody speaking against a status quo.

ExMachina - 25 February 2011 10:53 PM

Is it me or do Vegans always seem to smell funny?

It’s you. Maybe some meat flecks trapped between your teeth?

Phi- - 26 February 2011 09:22 AM

What’s the point of not drinking the cow’s milk ? I don’t get it

A better question would be, what’s the point of drinking it? Humans are the only species who drinks milk from other mammals. (Not counting cats, but they’re given cow milk by the humans - cats aren’t suckling off cows in nature). Cows aren’t naturally waiting for humans to milk them, it’s a phenomenon caused by our breeding and harvesting of cows.

Phi- - 26 February 2011 09:22 AM

Why all the vegetarians are skinny , I have not seen a vegetarians with an athletic body, is it because they don’t eat meat ?

veganbodybuilding.com

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Posted: 26 February 2011 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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BFH - 26 February 2011 10:20 AM

A better question would be, what’s the point of drinking it? Humans are the only species who drinks milk from other mammals. (Not counting cats, but they’re given cow milk by the humans - cats aren’t suckling off cows in nature). Cows aren’t naturally waiting for humans to milk them, it’s a phenomenon caused by our breeding and harvesting of cows.

we drink their milk because we feed them , and we have the right to do it . it’s a relationship based on(give and take) ,they call it Symbiotic relationship in Biology

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Posted: 26 February 2011 10:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Phi- - 26 February 2011 10:29 AM

We drink their milk because we feed them, and we have the right to do it. It’s a relationship based on give-and-take, they call it a Symbiotic relationship in Biology.

No, we do not have a right, and symbiosis implies a relationship based on either survival or essential benefits. Cow milk is not an essential benefit for human beings, and cows do not need human intervention to survive. Being harvested is not their natural state.

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Posted: 26 February 2011 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Phi- - 26 February 2011 10:29 AM
BFH - 26 February 2011 10:20 AM

A better question would be, what’s the point of drinking it? Humans are the only species who drinks milk from other mammals. (Not counting cats, but they’re given cow milk by the humans - cats aren’t suckling off cows in nature). Cows aren’t naturally waiting for humans to milk them, it’s a phenomenon caused by our breeding and harvesting of cows.

we drink their milk because we feed them , and we have the right to do it . it’s a relationship based on(give and take) ,they call it Symbiotic relationship in Biology

Actually, BFH, I have seen cats steal milk from a cow’s utter.  It’s funny really.  As for humans, I agree with Phi.  Since the animal is not killed I have no issues with drinking milk myself, but the thought of hormones and alike being in the milk, due to modern farming techniques, does bother me greatly.  I grew up with untainted cows milk and butter.

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Posted: 26 February 2011 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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BFH - 26 February 2011 10:35 AM
Phi- - 26 February 2011 10:29 AM

We drink their milk because we feed them, and we have the right to do it. It’s a relationship based on give-and-take, they call it a Symbiotic relationship in Biology.

No, we do not have a right, and symbiosis implies a relationship based on either survival or essential benefits. Cow milk is not an essential benefit for human beings, and cows do not need human intervention to survive. Being harvested is not their natural state.

I don’t know.  My friend Old Bossy never had an issue with me drinking her milk, but I would never dream of eating her and didn’t either.  She was killed when I was still a kid, but you didn’t see me eating her either.

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Posted: 26 February 2011 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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ExMachina - 25 February 2011 10:53 PM

Is it me or do Vegans always seem to smell funny?

Huh?  I think it’s you and such a statement sounds up there with other prejudice remarks.  As a vegetarian, I haven’t ever met a vegan who smelled any different than any other human.

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Posted: 26 February 2011 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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BFH - 26 February 2011 10:20 AM
jump_in_the_pit - 25 February 2011 02:15 PM

...but the nutrition isn’t quite there… B-12, iron, and others are low or absent.

This is a myth.

B-12 deficiencies are not exclusively a vegan phenomenon, a matter of cases not related to veganism, but individual circumstances like pernicious anemia or parasitic infection. In fact, the human body only needs a few micrograms of B-12 a day at most, and stores it for years. Vegans can get B-12 in mushrooms or cereal or nutritional yeast. As for iron, vegans and vegetarians have no higher incidence of iron deficiency than in the omnivore population, and can obtain iron in beans, leafy greens, nuts, and even tofu.

BFH is right about the sources of which vegans and vegetarians get their B-12 and iron.

However, not all vegetarians and vegans share the same thoughts and opinions anymore than other humanists do.  However, our reasons for not eating meat could be very similar to each others, but the problem is, it might not be very well understood by many, as evidence by the person who mentioned plants being living beings (or whatever it was).  BFH is more likely to understand my comments about a cow being my friend and the underlying nuances more so than others though.

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Posted: 26 February 2011 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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BFH - 26 February 2011 10:35 AM
Phi- - 26 February 2011 10:29 AM

We drink their milk because we feed them, and we have the right to do it. It’s a relationship based on give-and-take, they call it a Symbiotic relationship in Biology.

No, we do not have a right, and symbiosis implies a relationship based on either survival or essential benefits. Cow milk is not an essential benefit for human beings, and cows do not need human intervention to survive. Being harvested is not their natural state.

I think it’s sir , where do you suggest human beings will get their daily dose of Calcium from? . In addition , cows can survive on their own but when they rely on human intervention then it’s our own right to take their milk.

let me make it clear for you ,take for example a random cat on the streets , first day you give her food but she is hesitated ,second day she might come to you , on the third day when she sees you she runs towards you , in this case the cat is relied on you for survival which you have pointed it out above as part of the Symbiotic relationship.
same thing goes for cows

[ Edited: 26 February 2011 01:06 PM by Phi- ]
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