Sadly the Hindus of India are put to that test, DM.
I still don’t see a definition of sentient here. I suppose that showing a mirror to a potato wouldn’t really be a fair test. I suppose we’ll need another test for sentience that can apply to the plants. I wonder what happens when you show a mirror to a fish? I wonder if we could judge their movements to mean that they recognize themselves, rather than thinking it is another fish. The fish move so little, I wonder if their movements could be telling. But if the mirror test can’t apply to fish, then I don’t know how we can define sentient? Its a difficult problem sentience. I just had to give it up long ago.
Brodie, if vegetarians tend to have too little of this or than nutrient, than that is simply practical. If they give up on food, and take the drastic step of supplementing their diet, then that seems like they are limited, forced to supplement rather than to simply eat food. Don’t you agree that it is a nutritional limit in the vegetarian diet?
Which isn’t to say there aren’t healthy meat-eaters, but that the Western diet - really, the American diet - is making people obese and unhealthy.
Animal FAT, butter, carbohydrates (bread, pasta, potatoes), and white sugar (soft drinks, ice cream, pancake syrup, cake, & cookies) are making Americans fat. Usually at restaurants the least common element in the servings is meat because meat is the most expensive element to buy and that cuts into their profits. Obviously there are exceptions such as quarter and half pounder hamburgers and steak places but they are also more expensive. Carbs are cheap and restaurants cover their meat dishes with lots of breading, bread sticks for appetizers, huge buns, potatoes, and pasta. Breakfast places are mostly carbs with orange juice, hash brown potatoes, pancakes, waffles, french toast. The meat they give you such as sausage patties, sausage links, and bacon are mostly fat.
Interesting. People say that pasta puts on the pounds, but I eat a lot of pasta and I’m 4’ 11” 100 lbs. I’m hardly fat. I also eat a lot of margarine too. However, I am a vegetarian, as I’ve noted before, and aside from chocolate, I really don’t ingest a lot of refined sugars. I get my sugars from juice (without added sugar), fruit, and potatoes and other carbs. If I didn’t get my fats and carbs from these things, I’d probably get little to none at all.
I forgot to mention portion size. That has a lot to do with Americans being overweight. Also, I have heard that the human digestive tract is not really that good at digesting wheat and grains. Wheat has only become a big part in human’s diets in the last few thousand years. Don’t know what others think about this.
I forgot to mention portion size. That has a lot to do with Americans being overweight. Also, I have heard that the human digestive tract is not really that good at digesting wheat and grains. Wheat has only become a big part in human’s diets in the last few thousand years. Don’t know what others think about this.
Portion size has a LOT to do with it, but like lettuce, I think whole grains are better for people than bleached flour.
Yes, it’s not just meat making people unhealthy, it’s also the other things mentioned above. But eating too much meat is much worse for you than eating too many plants.
No, I don’t think nutritional deficiency is a certain limit in the vegan diet, I merely observe that B-12 deficiency is a potential issue vegans have to look out for. Again, B-12 deficiency is not an exclusively vegan problem, not even mainly a vegan problem.
Lean meat also takes a lot of time and energy to digest making it less likely to make people fat than by looking at just the number of calories in a serving. At the other end of the spectrum would be white sugar or high fructose syrup that is almost as quick and effortless at getting calories into the bloodstream as by using an IV drip.
... after hundreds, thousands of generations of breeding and domestication ~
... domesticated pigs were brought to America, released to the wild, and evolved into boars, mean attitude with tusks. They live on in the wild, why can’t cows?
Seems to me I’ve read a few times that pigs are known to go feral quite rapidly when released on islands and such. Perhaps because they are omnivores. Also on a actual (small scale, traditional, diverse) farm pigs tend to take care of themselves, just keep the slop coming and they’ll deal with the rest of their up keep. Whereas cows are high maintenance, limited diet, plus they’ve had the heck breeded out of them. But I admit I’m no authority.
... after hundreds, thousands of generations of breeding and domestication ~
... domesticated pigs were brought to America, released to the wild, and evolved into boars, mean attitude with tusks. They live on in the wild, why can’t cows?
Seems to me I’ve read a few times that pigs are known to go feral quite rapidly when released on islands and such. Perhaps because they are omnivores. Also on a actual (small scale, traditional, diverse) farm pigs tend to take care of themselves, just keep the slop coming and they’ll deal with the rest of their up keep. Whereas cows are high maintenance, limited diet, plus they’ve had the heck breeded out of them. But I admit I’m no authority.
Actually, my pig was high maintenance. Well, he was a runt that I insisted my mother had to help me rescue from the others. She did and I made him a pet, naming him… you guessed it- Wilbur. But he was my pig and yes, I did carry him around like I did my cats, dogs, chickens, etc. A dog, who was 1/2 wolf, killed him several months later. My mother shot the dog.
Actually, my pig was high maintenance. Well, he was a runt that I insisted my mother had to help me rescue from the others. She did and I made him a pet, naming him… you guessed it- Wilbur.
See there, another example of how love complicates things.
Although you know I was thinking about my post, and the thought of range cattle came to mind, they are a pretty independent crowd. Guess when I wrote that I was thinking about dairy cows, and those babies are definitely high maintenance… love or not.
Actually, my pig was high maintenance. Well, he was a runt that I insisted my mother had to help me rescue from the others. She did and I made him a pet, naming him… you guessed it- Wilbur.
See there, another example of how love complicates things.
Although you know I was thinking about my post, and the thought of range cattle came to mind, they are a pretty independent crowd. Guess when I wrote that I was thinking about dairy cows, and those babies are definitely high maintenance… love or not.
Where’s our resident vet to help clarify?
All babies are high maintenance when you get down to it.
Living on Guam, there was a type of oxen used to plow fields and ride. I have been close to them and they are rather dull and pretty gentle beasts. i was very surprised to find that it was the same animal as the ferocious water buffalo, which is considered one of the most dangerous game animals in the world.
I didn’t realize that the placid water buffalo and Hemmingway’s “The Short Life of Francis Macomber” buff were the same animal. I don’t doubt it though. If you’re thinking of dairy cattle, sure, Bossy is usually pretty mellow, but a full grown Holstein bull is one dangerous, 2000 lb. chunk of meat. I worked around dairy bulls as a young man and beef bulls always seemed like teddy bears in comparison. It might not take all that many generations in the wild for dairy cows to be pretty viable, especially when the females would be guarded by males that could present a challenge to any predator.
(I know, I know, I’m off topic again. Focus is not a big part of my life.)
I was recently in Laos, and the water buffalo there are astoundingly placid. Kids clamber all over them like playground equipment. I’ve spent some time onmy relatives dairy farms, and the old Holstein is a pretty dim bulb, but even they wouldn’t put up with that!
But he was my pig and yes, I did carry him around like I did my cats, dogs, chickens, etc. A dog, who was 1/2 wolf, killed him several months later. My mother shot the dog.
