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The greatest proof of free will…
Posted: 31 October 2012 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2461 ]
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Quoting Write4U:

IMO, certain things happen “inevitably”. IOW, the big bang was an inevitable event.

  Nah, the big bang was certainly evitable. smile

Had it not occurred, we wouldn’t be here to discuss it.  There may be many universes without physical dimension or time because no big bang or anything equivalent happen(ed) in them.

Occam

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Posted: 31 October 2012 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2462 ]
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Occam. - 31 October 2012 03:57 PM

Quoting Write4U:

IMO, certain things happen “inevitably”. IOW, the big bang was an inevitable event.

  Nah, the big bang was certainly evitable. smile

Had it not occurred, we wouldn’t be here to discuss it.

Yes, unavoidably so. Which argues for inevitability or determinism if you will.  However determinism does not forbid a chaotic causality or emergent qualities.

There may be many universes without physical dimension or time because no big bang or anything equivalent happen(ed) in them.

Occam

The states you are describing cannot define a universe as we know it. You are describing the conditions that existed before the BB, i.e Potential.

Else we will need to redefine the word Universe. IMO Multiverse is a contradiction in terms, if not in science. You cannot have multiple realities become explicate in the same spacetime coordinate. In the end there can be only one reality which becomes deterministically explicate.

The multiple universes we are imagining are implied in the metaphysical qualities and characteristics of Potential, which is the absolute neutrality that allows certain events to happen and prevents certain things from happening.

[ Edited: 31 October 2012 04:53 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 31 October 2012 10:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2463 ]
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Nah, we are quite aware of three physical dimensions, but apparently in the subatomic quantum realm there are more dimensions (because we can’t see or exist in them it’s essentially impossible to imagine them), so it’s quite reasonable to suggest a universe (NOT as we know it) that exists without dimension, but with the possiblity of them if a big bang happened there. 

Occam

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Posted: 01 November 2012 12:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2464 ]
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Write4U - 31 October 2012 04:46 PM

Yes, unavoidably so. Which argues for inevitability or determinism if you will.

1) The big bang was inevitable given we are here.

Is not the same as:

2) Given the big bang, banged as it did it and the laws of nature we have to be here, precisely as we are.

So no, the inevitability of the big bang does not argue for determinism.

Stephen

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Posted: 01 November 2012 12:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2465 ]
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Occam. - 31 October 2012 10:15 PM

Nah, we are quite aware of three physical dimensions, but apparently in the subatomic quantum realm there are more dimensions (because we can’t see or exist in them it’s essentially impossible to imagine them), so it’s quite reasonable to suggest a universe (NOT as we know it) that exists without dimension, but with the possiblity of them if a big bang happened there. 

Occam

I am not arguing against the existence of the 12 dimensions within (or associated with) this universe. I am arguing the existence of multiple universes, based on different constants. I am not sure if it is logically possible that the potential to have more than one universe exists or is sufficiently stable to yield a universe instead of a field disturbance which is bound to fail in an evolutionary sense. I see these dimensions not as seperated from, but as necessary for this universe to function as it does.

I agree that if another BB had happened it might have resulted in a different universe. The potential for such an event must have existed.
However, one might also argue that Potential, as we know it, must follow certain universal constants for any reality to be able to become explicate. Therefore, even if another universe might have become explicate, it would still have to follow universal constants and exhibit a similar evolutionary process as this universe. But then, with multiple universes, we end up with the problem with multiple occupancy of spacetime coordinates.

This is the problem with proposing a different universe “elsewhere” (there).  Where is there? When is there? If the BB originated from a almost infinitely powerful potential field contained within a singularity, did it use all available potential and use all available spacetime, or is there more room available for more than one universe?  When and where would that pre-exist, ready to be filled? 

IMO, this is what Hawking was talking about when he spoke about universes where no information is retained and why our universe is the only one which could have evolved, because in this universe information is retained. Which of course brings us back to “determinism” (as an evolutionary process).

[ Edited: 01 November 2012 12:49 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 01 November 2012 12:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2466 ]
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StephenLawrence - 01 November 2012 12:05 AM
Write4U - 31 October 2012 04:46 PM

Yes, unavoidably so. Which argues for inevitability or determinism if you will.

1) The big bang was inevitable given we are here.

Is not the same as:

2) Given the big bang, banged as it did it and the laws of nature we have to be here, precisely as we are.

So no, the inevitability of the big bang does not argue for determinism.

Stephen

But how did it bang?  As far as I understand it, this was a mega quantum event, total chaos, where everything happened all at once in the same place.
Only after the inflationary period did the universal evolutionary process begin in a deterministic way.

Perhaps I should have said that a BB was inevitable. However why would any BB not follow universal constants and thus end up with something similar to what we have now.

[ Edited: 01 November 2012 12:41 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 01 November 2012 01:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2467 ]
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Write4U - 01 November 2012 12:36 AM

 

Perhaps I should have said that a BB was inevitable.

You need to be clear about what you mean by inevitable. What Occam meant was inevitable given we are here, so we couldn’t have got here without the big bang.

However why would any BB not follow universal constants and thus end up with something similar to what we have now.

The point is if you are talking about determinism you are talking about it being physically impossible to have got to other than this precise situation from the big bang precisely as it was.

You avoid sticking to definitions and so it’s hard to follow your thoughts.

All I was saying is the big bang being inevitable (as Occam meant it) doesn’t lead to determinism.

Why should any BB follow the same universal constants? I dunno.

Stephen

edit: changed possible to impossible

[ Edited: 01 November 2012 02:52 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 01 November 2012 03:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2468 ]
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StephenLawrence - 01 November 2012 01:28 AM
Write4U - 01 November 2012 12:36 AM

 

Perhaps I should have said that a BB was inevitable.

You need to be clear about what you mean by inevitable. What Occam meant was inevitable given we are here, so we couldn’t have got here without the big bang.

oh no, I meant a BB was inevitable. As it turned out to be it was the one which created this universe. I was trying to respond to the concept of a multi-universe. In that case, the term “inevitable event” becomes “regular event” and that seems problematic to me. And what would happent to determinism. Would (could) there be non-deterministic universes?

However why would any BB not follow universal constants and thus end up with something similar to what we have now.

The point is if you are talking about determinism you are talking about it being physically possible to have got to other than this precise situation from the big bang precisely as it was.

You avoid sticking to definitions and so it’s hard to follow your thoughts.

All I was saying is the big bang being inevitable (as Occam meant it) doesn’t lead to determinism.

Why should any BB follow the same universal constants? I dunno.

Stephen

I am not disagreeing as much as probing.  There seems to be a clear connection between inevitability and determinism. I am just wondering if, logically, determinism can yield the same result using different paths, i.e. determinism itself has a built in logical flexibility.

inevitable

in·ev·i·ta·ble
   [in-ev-i-tuh-buhl] Show IPA

adjective
1.
unable to be avoided, evaded, or escaped; certain; necessary: an inevitable conclusion.
2.
sure to occur, happen, or come; unalterable: The inevitable end of human life is death.

[ Edited: 01 November 2012 03:20 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 01 November 2012 03:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2469 ]
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Write4U - 01 November 2012 03:12 AM

inevitable

in·ev·i·ta·ble
   [in-ev-i-tuh-buhl] Show IPA

adjective
1.
unable to be avoided, evaded, or escaped; certain; necessary: an inevitable conclusion.
2.
sure to occur, happen, or come; unalterable: The inevitable end of human life is death.

Yes, but inevitable might mean inevitable given certain facts (as Occam used it) or just inevitable regardless.

Stephen

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Posted: 01 November 2012 03:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2470 ]
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StephenLawrence - 01 November 2012 03:19 AM
Write4U - 01 November 2012 03:12 AM

inevitable

in·ev·i·ta·ble
   [in-ev-i-tuh-buhl] Show IPA

adjective
1.
unable to be avoided, evaded, or escaped; certain; necessary: an inevitable conclusion.
2.
sure to occur, happen, or come; unalterable: The inevitable end of human life is death.

Yes, but inevitable might mean inevitable given certain facts (as Occam used it) or just inevitable regardless.

Stephen

That’s what I was exploring.

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Posted: 01 November 2012 03:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2471 ]
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Write4U - 01 November 2012 03:22 AM

That’s what I was exploring.

OK, well I think what happens is you mix the two meanings up.

Assuming determinism the future is inevitable given the actual state the universe is in now.

But what matters to us is things that are inevitable regardless, or inevitable given certain known facts and so most things are evitable/avoidable rather than inevitable/unavoidable.

Stephen

[ Edited: 01 November 2012 03:32 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 02 November 2012 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2472 ]
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Write4U - 30 October 2012 03:49 PM
Lois - 30 October 2012 10:28 AM
Cloak - 21 February 2011 09:48 AM

...unless you’re predetermined to do so.

Right in theory,  though “predetermined” implies a predeterminer.  I prefer “determined” by a combination of the countless forces of our genes, environment and experienceis that drives all of our “decisions” and actions and of which we are unaware. I don’t see how our actions acan be predetermined unless there is a powerful supernatural entity doing the predetermining.  The thrust of the various forces changes every moment.  Nothing is predetermined.

IMO, certain things happen “inevitably”. IOW, the big bang was an inevitable event. This avoids the argument of “determinism” and all that can be said that something will happen sometime in the future, but when or how depends on the amount of potential present at a certain spacetime coordinate(s) at any given moment.


Yes, but the inevitibility is determined by many factors.  The big bang wouldn’t have happened precisely when it did unless conditions were right for it.  Those conditions were determined by natural factors no one and no entiey had any control over. It’s a lot like evolution.  It just happened the way it happened because of conditions that led up to it. Nothing was guiding it.

LL.

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Posted: 02 November 2012 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2473 ]
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Write4U - 31 October 2012 04:46 PM
Occam. - 31 October 2012 03:57 PM

Quoting Write4U:

IMO, certain things happen “inevitably”. IOW, the big bang was an inevitable event.

  Nah, the big bang was certainly evitable. smile

Had it not occurred, we wouldn’t be here to discuss it.

Yes, unavoidably so. Which argues for inevitability or determinism if you will.  However determinism does not forbid a chaotic causality or emergent qualities.

There may be many universes without physical dimension or time because no big bang or anything equivalent happen(ed) in them.

Occam


You appear to overlook the fact that chaotic causality and emergent qualities are also a function of determinism.  Randomness is not an argument against determinism, but an argument for it.  It is simply an additional determining factor.

....

The states you are describing cannot define a universe as we know it. You are describing the conditions that existed before the BB, i.e Potential.

Else we will need to redefine the word Universe. IMO Multiverse is a contradiction in terms, if not in science. You cannot have multiple realities become explicate in the same spacetime coordinate. In the end there can be only one reality which becomes deterministically explicate.

The multiple universes we are imagining are implied in the metaphysical qualities and characteristics of Potential, which is the absolute neutrality that allows certain events to happen and prevents certain things from happening.

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Posted: 02 November 2012 12:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2474 ]
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StephenLawrence - 01 November 2012 12:05 AM
Write4U - 31 October 2012 04:46 PM

Yes, unavoidably so. Which argues for inevitability or determinism if you will.

1) The big bang was inevitable given we are here.

Is not the same as:

2) Given the big bang, banged as it did it and the laws of nature we have to be here, precisely as we are.

So no, the inevitability of the big bang does not argue for determinism.

 

Stephen

What dies it argue for, then? Inevitability is a result of the action of determining factors.

.....

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Posted: 02 November 2012 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2475 ]
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StephenLawrence - 01 November 2012 03:24 AM

Assuming determinism the future is inevitable given the actual state the universe is in now.

Assuming indeterminism the future is inevitable as well.

Daniel Dennett - Free Will Determinism and Evolution:

Youtube, skip the introduction. Start at about 10 minutes.

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