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The greatest proof of free will…
Posted: 03 November 2012 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2476 ]
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GdB - 02 November 2012 03:26 PM
StephenLawrence - 01 November 2012 03:24 AM

Assuming determinism the future is inevitable given the actual state the universe is in now.

Assuming indeterminism the future is inevitable as well.

LL.  It is.  That’s the point.  The future will be determined by determining factors just as the past has been. We don’t know what the determining factors will be so we can’t know what the future will be. 

...

....

Daniel Dennett - Free Will Determinism and Evolution:

Youtube, skip the introduction. Start at about 10 minutes.

[ Edited: 04 November 2012 01:54 PM by Occam. ]
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Posted: 04 November 2012 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2477 ]
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Lois,

Do you have problems with our forum software? At least place you own comments after the last [ /quote]. And I don’t know what ‘LL’ means.

And I also do not understand if you now agree that under indeterminism the future is just as inevitable as under determinism? What could it otherwise be when you do not believe in a soul that impairs with the physical universe?

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Posted: 04 November 2012 02:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2478 ]
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Lois is a new member, and the little gimmicks like figuring out where the {quote}s and {/quotes} go take a while to get used to.  By going back and reading GdB’s prior post it was easy to see what she was trying to say so I added the symbols as necessary.

LL are her initials so I beleive she was indicating that the following was her comment.

And an aside to Lois:  Don’t worry, I frequently don’t understand what GdB is trying to say.  LOL

Occam

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Posted: 04 November 2012 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2479 ]
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GdB - 04 November 2012 09:40 AM


And I also do not understand if you now agree that under indeterminism the future is just as inevitable as under determinism? What could it otherwise be when you do not believe in a soul that impairs with the physical universe?

My earlier comments focused on Occam’s use of inevitable, the big bang was inevitable given we are here, meaning there had to be a big bang because if there had not been we would not be here.

Assuming indeterminism the future doesn’t have to be the way it will be given the way the universe is now and so isn’t inevitable in this sense.

You obviously have some other meaning in mind.

Stephen

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Posted: 04 November 2012 11:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2480 ]
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Occam. - 04 November 2012 02:00 PM

Lois is a new member, and the little gimmicks like figuring out where the {quote}s and {/quotes} go take a while to get used to.  By going back and reading GdB’s prior post it was easy to see what she was trying to say so I added the symbols as necessary.

I know Lois is new, therefore I gave the hint to write at least behind the last [ /quote]. Thanks for the hint that LL is not some www abbreviation that I am not aware of.

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Posted: 04 November 2012 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2481 ]
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StephenLawrence - 04 November 2012 02:15 PM

My earlier comments focused on Occam’s use of inevitable, the big bang was inevitable given we are here, meaning there had to be a big bang because if there had not been we would not be here.

Well, I think this is misuse of the word ‘inevitable’. To conclude that something must have been the case because the situation is now as it is (Given the corpse in the room it is ‘inevitable’ that a murder has committed). Something in the future is inevitable, when we can do nothing to change it. Maybe one could say that a conclusion is inevitable, but that is still a kind of prediction, that in the end we will conclude the truth of a proposition. But that does not mean that the content of the proposition is inevitable: that is dependent on its history.

StephenLawrence - 04 November 2012 02:15 PM

Assuming indeterminism the future doesn’t have to be the way it will be given the way the universe is now and so isn’t inevitable in this sense.

I nearly suspect that you yourself don’t understand what you have written here. At least, I don’t. Can you reformulate this, maybe give an example?

StephenLawrence - 04 November 2012 02:15 PM

You obviously have some other meaning in mind.

Maybe. I reacted on this sentence of yours:

Assuming determinism the future is inevitable given the actual state the universe is in now.

Supposing it is correct use of ‘inevitable’, then the only way the sentence makes sense is not true, or better said: it is also true for indeterminism.

Given what will happen in the future, if it is because of some random process or if it is causally determined, it is inevitable. That follows from the definition of ‘future’, and has nothing to do with determinism or indeterminism.

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Posted: 04 November 2012 11:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2482 ]
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GdB - 04 November 2012 11:25 PM

Given what will happen in the future, if it is because of some random process or if it is causally determined, it is inevitable. That follows from the definition of ‘future’, and has nothing to do with determinism or indeterminism.

Huh? The point is the random process could go differently given the way things are now, whilst the determined process couldn’t.

Stephen

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Posted: 04 November 2012 11:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2483 ]
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GdB - 04 November 2012 11:25 PM
StephenLawrence - 04 November 2012 02:15 PM

My earlier comments focused on Occam’s use of inevitable, the big bang was inevitable given we are here, meaning there had to be a big bang because if there had not been we would not be here.

Well, I think this is misuse of the word ‘inevitable’.

I tend to agree, I was just working with what was meant.

Stephen

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Posted: 04 November 2012 11:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2484 ]
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StephenLawrence - 04 November 2012 11:37 PM

Huh? The point is the random process could go differently given the way things are now, whilst the determined process couldn’t.

Yes. The result of a random process is not fixed, that means we cannot predict it. But the definition of ‘future’ is that what will happen. And there will be an outcome of the random process, and only this actual outcome belongs to the future. So that means that everything that will happen, i.e. the future, is inevitable. Things that could have happened, but did not, do not belong to our future.

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Posted: 05 November 2012 01:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2485 ]
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GdB - 04 November 2012 11:55 PM
StephenLawrence - 04 November 2012 11:37 PM

Huh? The point is the random process could go differently given the way things are now, whilst the determined process couldn’t.

Yes. The result of a random process is not fixed, that means we cannot predict it.

It means more than we cannot predict it, or else there is no distinction between determinism and indeterminism

But the definition of ‘future’ is that what will happen.

Yes.

And there will be an outcome of the random process, and only this actual outcome belongs to the future.

Yes.

So that means that everything that will happen, i.e. the future, is inevitable.

I don’t see how that follows.

Things that could have happened, but did not, do not belong to our future.

Yes.

Stephen

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Posted: 05 November 2012 01:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2486 ]
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StephenLawrence - 05 November 2012 01:02 AM

And there will be an outcome of the random process, and only this actual outcome belongs to the future.

Yes.

So that means that everything that will happen, i.e. the future, is inevitable.

I don’t see how that follows.

It follows from the previous. If an event will happen in the future, then it is inevitable. That is true for a determined event and for a not determined event. That is the definition of ‘will happen’.

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Posted: 05 November 2012 01:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2487 ]
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GdB - 05 November 2012 01:21 AM

If an event will happen in the future, then it is inevitable.

You’ll have to run this by me again by what definition of inevitable is this true?

Stephen

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Posted: 05 November 2012 02:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2488 ]
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StephenLawrence - 05 November 2012 01:24 AM

You’ll have to run this by me again by what definition of inevitable is this true?

It will happen. Not ‘it could happen if…’, or ‘it happens according to law of nature X’, it just happens.

Don’t ask how I know that something will happen, especially with quantum random events it is even impossible to know, but the definition of ‘will happen’ is will happen, so it is inevitable. A future event that will not happen is not a future event.

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Posted: 05 November 2012 06:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2489 ]
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GdB - 05 November 2012 02:50 AM
StephenLawrence - 05 November 2012 01:24 AM

You’ll have to run this by me again by what definition of inevitable is this true?

It will happen. Not ‘it could happen if…’, or ‘it happens according to law of nature X’, it just happens.

Don’t ask how I know that something will happen, especially with quantum random events it is even impossible to know, but the definition of ‘will happen’ is will happen, so it is inevitable. A future event that will not happen is not a future event.

smile

All you’ve done is said the same thing again. What I asked was by what definition of inevitable is this true?

Stephen

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Posted: 05 November 2012 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2490 ]
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StephenLawrence - 05 November 2012 06:09 AM

All you’ve done is said the same thing again. What I asked was by what definition of inevitable is this true?

I don’t know what you want to hear more: if an event will occur in the future, it is inevitable. What kind of meanings of ‘inevitable’ do you have where I can choose from?

- If I fall, it is inevitable that I will hit the ground.
- If somebody will throw a stone to my head, it is inevitable that it will hit me. (Or can I duck, i.e. the hitting my head is evitable?)
- It is inevitable that the sun will become a red giant
- It is inevitable that you will answer on this posting (or not? Why?)

What meaning do you use for inevitable? Now if the future outcome of a quantum die is 6, in your sense of the word, is it inevitable or not?
Now if an event depends on your decision, is that event inevitable?

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