3 of 168
3
The greatest proof of free will…
Posted: 24 February 2011 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9283
Joined  2006-08-29
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 06:59 PM

Without consciousness and memory and the like we are nothing more than rocks with different molecular chains basically.(or plants lets not get technical)

Yes, but the problem is that we do have consciousness. I am even becoming open to the possibility of determinism being false. And don’t ask me any questions on this, I won’t answer them.  grin (Maybe I need to start a blog. Isn’t that what blogs are for? Just to say stuff without feeling the obligation to respond?)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2011 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4142
Joined  2008-08-14

Also Write…The hourglass is just an analogy. Whose hand would be available in the analogy. Some would say god’s. Otherwise the hourglass as it sits motionless is the analogy-albeit simple, to describe determinism.
However if you wish to attach a naturalistic event as the hand that shakes the hourglass that’s fine..the analogy still works.

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2011 07:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4142
Joined  2008-08-14
George - 24 February 2011 07:32 PM
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 06:59 PM

Without consciousness and memory and the like we are nothing more than rocks with different molecular chains basically.(or plants lets not get technical)

Yes, but the problem is that we do have consciousness. I am even becoming open to the possibility of determinism being false. And don’t ask me any questions on this, I won’t answer them.  grin (Maybe I need to start a blog. Isn’t that what blogs are for? Just to say stuff without feeling the obligation to respond?)

Sure we do have consciousness, but it isn’t something you have to wrestle with George. It is what is.  You have it, I have it, we basically know what it does for us and other people.
Are there really any unknown by-products of consciousness? No! It’s all pretty transparent. Are there any phenomena that could be caused by consciousness? No.
This really sucks George because you, while not always agreeing with me, at least understand my crappy writing style and follow the gist of what I am trying to convey. Now your turning over on the whole free-will thing.  grin

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2011 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4142
Joined  2008-08-14
qutsemnie - 24 February 2011 05:40 PM

“Can one make a case that it was predetermined that we both ended up with raspeberry?”

What if we make the case that you make all choices a split second before you become consciously aware…....of unbroken time.  Philosophy has worked on ideas for these sorts of things, but neuroscience is catching up with evidence on which philosophical idea is actually correct.


These sorts of things are interesting:
http://www.economist.com/node/13489722?story_id=13489722

You say you make decisions with free will, but you made them before you even could tell me.

Though the really good question is why?  Why is this an efficient adaptation to environment?  Though, my question would be is it possible to evolve a mind as good at problem solving as ours that does not display these characteristics?  Tough questions to answer.

Yes. Yes. This is real relevant. Or in my reasoning-who is to say the “choice” wasn’t made a split second after the action was done. It’s all fluffy, but this is the kind of stuff that will unwrap the illusion.
Because again…it’s all memory really. There is no future thought. All thought is a split second behind reality. Most of it is hours, days and years behind reality.
This branches off into other categories a little(my comments) but great point Qutsemmie. This is the avenue that has to be explored because it’s all about what we perceive anyways. And if it all could be shown that we do have free-will through these processes then great! I’ll believe it.

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2011 08:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5976
Joined  2009-02-26
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 07:28 PM
Write4U - 24 February 2011 07:25 PM
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 06:44 PM

If determinism is true then which option you select depends upon the way the world was 1000 years before your birth.

Yes. Zillions and zillions of grains of sand in an hourglass. The way the grains are stacked in the glass predetermines exactly(or as some have suggested 99.999% probability)how they will fall through the glass and in which order.(and to get technical…yes how they will land on the bottom side of the glass and stack and arrange themselves.)

If that were so, why can we not predict the future? According to most physicists the future is uncertain. Thus it seems that determination is in fact made the very instant before the event becomes real. If that is the case, why would a person not be able to influence this event the moment before it happens. Perhaps that undetermined .001 is subject to free will. In the grand scheme of things (trillions upon trillions of events) a .001 % chance may translate in considerable changes.

In your example of the hourglass, what if I picked it up and shook it a little. It would destroy the existing stack of sand and rearrange it into a different outcome. Is that still predetermination or did my voluntary action cause a different outcome?

Real simple Write, like an hourglass the grains of sand can’t all be seen or counted.

I understand the practical obstacles in determining the exact outcome, but it does not answer my question. What if I deliberately shook the hourglass to rearrange the existing configuration. I would venture to say, without necessity of proof, that the outcome would be different than if I did not shake the hourglass. One need not know the original ptojected outcome and still be able to alter it.

[ Edited: 24 February 2011 08:23 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2011 08:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4142
Joined  2008-08-14

Write4U-

I understand the practical obstacles in determining the exact outcome, but it does not answer my question. What if I deliberately shook the hourglass to rearrange the existing configuration. I would venture to say, without necessity of proof, that the outcome would be different than if I did not shake the hourglass. One need not know the original outcome and still be able to alter it.

But it’s an analogy. What does your hand represent in the analogy?
Of course the outcome would be different.
What does your hand represent in the analogy? Also I made a separate post to address the shaking hand above, I don’t know if you saw it or not.

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2011 08:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5976
Joined  2009-02-26
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 08:22 PM

Write4U-

I understand the practical obstacles in determining the exact outcome, but it does not answer my question. What if I deliberately shook the hourglass to rearrange the existing configuration. I would venture to say, without necessity of proof, that the outcome would be different than if I did not shake the hourglass. One need not know the original outcome and still be able to alter it.

But it’s an analogy. What does your hand represent in the analogy?
Of course the outcome would be different.
What does your hand represent in the analogy? Also I made a separate post to address the shaking hand above, I don’t know if you saw it or not.

The hand is a voluntary and externally directed influence. While this may still be deterministic to the sand, it certainly voids any previous deterministic influence or condition. Thus the argument for 1000 year pre-determination would be false.
IMO, the future is uncertain and may be altered by any random or free-will influence until the very quantum event where it becomes manifest reality (the present).

[ Edited: 24 February 2011 09:59 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 February 2011 11:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4375
Joined  2007-08-31
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 06:59 PM

Without consciousness and memory and the like we are nothing more than rocks with different molecular chains basically

Yes! Completely correct! But what are with consciousness and memory and the like?
I like Doug’s comparison with a train: without the pistons, the wheels and the steam, it’s just a lot of iron basically. And did you ever see a piece of iron move itself?

George - 24 February 2011 07:32 PM

I am even becoming open to the possibility of determinism being false.

You do not have to. Determinism is true (except in QM. But that is of no importance). That’s why it is possible to have free will.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 12:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5939
Joined  2006-12-20
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 06:44 PM

]
Free will can mean different things but often it refers to a version that denies this.

Well then why did you “not quite” me above. That was basically my gist Stevie ol’ boy. The semantics part..that was my point.

because it’s not all semantics.

There is an obvious sense of which it’s your good fortune if the world was then in a state that produces a good selection and visa versa.

I don’t follow this.

The bit you don’t follow is the bit that isn’t semantics.

The world could have been in a state 1,000 years before your birth such that you’re going to do something really dreadful.

Let’s assume and hope you’re not going to.

Now the point is your lucky the world wasn’t in that state. I think there is an obvious sense of which it would be your bad fortune had it been in that state.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 12:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4375
Joined  2007-08-31
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 07:55 PM

Yes. Yes. This is real relevant. Or in my reasoning-who is to say the “choice” wasn’t made a split second after the action was done. It’s all fluffy, but this is the kind of stuff that will unwrap the illusion.
Because again…it’s all memory really. There is no future thought. All thought is a split second behind reality. Most of it is hours, days and years behind reality.
This branches off into other categories a little(my comments) but great point Qutsemmie. This is the avenue that has to be explored because it’s all about what we perceive anyways. And if it all could be shown that we do have free-will through these processes then great! I’ll believe it.

You see? Here you are again with the illusion.

it’s all memory really

Yes, of course. Don’t you think that this even essential in all concepts of free will? How can you act, if you have no memory at all? Then you would do just something as you please, completely random. It would have nothing to do with who and what you are.

There is no future thought.

question That which is in the future really does not exist. Yet. But thoughts about the future exist. You use it everytime when you act. It is the expectation to get water from the tap, that you got there when you are thirsty. And you know what? You expect that, because it nearly always has been the case: it is your memory.

All thought is a split second behind reality

Which reality? That from the tap? Is your thirst not real? Is your motivation to go to the tap not real? What makes the difference that I know that this is implemented in determined hardware?

And if it all could be shown that we do have free-will through these processes then great!

Now you must think very deeply, VYAZMA. Think as concrete as possible what the kind of observation would be, that would convince you that free will exists. Think about a future neurologist who presents the results of his research: we have free will! Use your fantasy, use science fiction, make up some fact that would show we have free will. Or is it possible, on basis of conceptual analysis only, that such facts cannot exist at all? And that we have free will, in the meaning that we can what we want? In that our actions are based on our beliefs (memory plays an importan role in this) and wishes? Is the question for free will an empirical question, which can be falsified or confirmed by science at all?

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 12:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4375
Joined  2007-08-31
StephenLawrence - 25 February 2011 12:07 AM

The world could have been in a state 1,000 years before your birth such that you’re going to do something really dreadful.

C’mon, Stephen. How can me still be me, that you can identify me, if I am different because 1000 years before something has changed?

And that is also my answer to this:

StephenLawrence - 24 February 2011 12:56 PM

Even GdB is not really a compatibilist. Even Gdb doesn’t accept that if the world was appropriately different 1,000 years before his birth he would be a rapist, for instance.

 Signature 

GdB

“The light is on, but there is nobody at home”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4142
Joined  2008-08-14

Write4U-

The hand is a voluntary and externally directed influence. While this may still be deterministic to the sand, it certainly voids any previous deterministic influence or condition. Thus the argument for 1000 year pre-determination would be false.
IMO, the future is uncertain and may be altered by any random or free-will influence until the very quantum event where it becomes manifest reality (the present).

Write, I’m a little shocked here. There is no hand! The hourglass is an analogy.
What would the hand represent in the analogy?
The hourglass is a symbol of the universe, or a symbol of all matter and time. It’s a rough analogy. So what is your hand a symbol of in the analogy?
There is no hand shaking the universe Write…
No it voids out things being motionless for 1000 years. It was determined the hand would come along and shake the glass.
What is the hand a symbol of in the analogy?

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 06:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4142
Joined  2008-08-14
GdB - 24 February 2011 11:34 PM
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 06:59 PM

Without consciousness and memory and the like we are nothing more than rocks with different molecular chains basically

Yes! Completely correct! But what are with consciousness and memory and the like?
I like Doug’s comparison with a train: without the pistons, the wheels and the steam, it’s just a lot of iron basically. And did you ever see a piece of iron move itself?

George - 24 February 2011 07:32 PM

I am even becoming open to the possibility of determinism being false.

You do not have to. Determinism is true (except in QM. But that is of no importance). That’s why it is possible to have free will.

Are you unfamiliar with those terms GdB? or are you just being quirky because I am able to factor consciousness and memory and the like into the equation?
After all consciousness and memory are electrical/chemical impulses-therefore they are matter. They are in the equation.
Did you think consciousness and memory was ethereal or mystical?

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4142
Joined  2008-08-14
StephenLawrence - 25 February 2011 12:07 AM
VYAZMA - 24 February 2011 06:44 PM

]
Free will can mean different things but often it refers to a version that denies this.

Well then why did you “not quite” me above. That was basically my gist Stevie ol’ boy. The semantics part..that was my point.

because it’s not all semantics.

There is an obvious sense of which it’s your good fortune if the world was then in a state that produces a good selection and visa versa.

I don’t follow this.

The bit you don’t follow is the bit that isn’t semantics.

The world could have been in a state 1,000 years before your birth such that you’re going to do something really dreadful.

Let’s assume and hope you’re not going to.

Now the point is your lucky the world wasn’t in that state. I think there is an obvious sense of which it would be your bad fortune had it been in that state.

Why do I get the most lost in this goddamn thread when I’m trying to understand what other people are saying I said?

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 06:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4142
Joined  2008-08-14

GdB-

Now you must think very deeply, VYAZMA. Think as concrete as possible what the kind of observation would be, that would convince you that free will exists. Think about a future neurologist who presents the results of his research: we have free will! Use your fantasy, use science fiction, make up some fact that would show we have free will. Or is it possible, on basis of conceptual analysis only, that such facts cannot exist at all? And that we have free will, in the meaning that we can what we want? In that our actions are based on our beliefs (memory plays an importan role in this) and wishes? Is the question for free will an empirical question, which can be falsified or confirmed by science at all?

Are you serious!!
This just devalued everything I have responded to you concerning these topics.
I’m starting to think you are not grasping this either as a whole, or there are parts you are not grasping(simple parts) that are preventing you from understanding this issue.
I know one thing is certain though, and I’m a little taken aback. It appears as if you are pleading for me to believe in free-will here above.
rolleyes

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 168
3