2 of 4
2
The Tree Of Life
Posted: 25 February 2011 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4404
Joined  2010-08-15
advocatus - 25 February 2011 08:09 AM

For Adam and Eve to have true freedom of will, Adam and Eve have to have the freedom to rebel. This is why this tree is in the garden, next to the tree of life; instead, evil will come about as a result of the clash of the will of Yahweh, and the will of humans, who happen to have the freedom to rebel. Human beings, and only human beings are the potential source of evil, responsibility for evil will lie in the hands of human beings. Yet, evil is represented not as a physical reality, it’s not built into the structure of Eden, evil is a condition of human existence, and to assert that evil stems from human behavior.

If that’s the case, why is there a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?  How can God know Good from Evil, if evil only stems from human behavior?

Or at least you’re making assumptions based on pipe dreams…
these are words that people wrote long ago, and they wrote them for various very human reasons,
why do some value them above and beyond getting out and experiencing the world for yourself?
Why are you taking their word for it??

[ Edited: 25 February 2011 04:47 PM by citizenschallenge.pm ]
 Signature 

We need each other, to keep ourselves honest

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3063
Joined  2010-04-26
Mriana - 25 February 2011 04:41 PM

DM, was that necessary?

No.

 Signature 

“In the end nature is horrific and teaches us nothing.” -Mutual of Omicron

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2423
Joined  2007-09-03
newnature - 24 February 2011 06:56 PM

Hi everybody, check out this person’s reasoning’s out of the old testament, cool blog;
http://thatlifeyahwehhas.blogspot.com/2011/02/tree-of-life.html

?why did you post this here?

?did you read any of the other material on the this forum?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 06:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  26
Joined  2011-02-24
Jackson - 25 February 2011 05:59 PM
newnature - 24 February 2011 06:56 PM

Hi everybody, check out this person’s reasoning’s out of the old testament, cool blog;
http://thatlifeyahwehhas.blogspot.com/2011/02/tree-of-life.html

?why did you post this here?

?did you read any of the other material on the this forum?

Thought someone might have done some research on that life, trying to learn more about what that person is reasoning out of the old testament; thanks for everyone’s insight, cool blog.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 25 February 2011 07:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7614
Joined  2007-03-02
Dead Monky - 25 February 2011 05:53 PM
Mriana - 25 February 2011 04:41 PM

DM, was that necessary?

No.

Well, I’m glad we agree.

 Signature 

Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  984
Joined  2005-01-14

Gosh, Newnature originally said, “I thought that person reasoned out some good stuff about how humans are the one’s to blame for the evil on this earth, it seems man opens the door for Satan and his clan?”, so I was wondering if he could explain the reasoning a little better.  You didn’t have to bite my head off!  wink

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
Jr. Member
RankRank
Total Posts:  26
Joined  2011-02-24

It seems Satan and his clan had enough fun during the fifth a day, that fifth a day lasted somewhere around 4 or 5 billion years, more or less. I find it interesting how creature would get a foot hold, then Yahweh would wipe some of it out? Creatures would get another foot hold, then some of it got wiped out again, and again that’s the way it went in them days. It seems Satan didn’t want nothing to do will this garden of Eden, Satan destroyed the first garden of Eden when the earth was in the first heaven?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7614
Joined  2007-03-02

OK New, again, what is your point with all of this.  I don’t think you have ever answered the question.  So you think the story is interesting, but you haven’t said why you posted it and all.

 Signature 

Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1778
Joined  2007-10-22

New Nature

What got me is how mankind was cut off from that life, that tree of life produced; it seems from that blog, that Yahweh has some kind life inside of himself? I guess this is the same kind of life Yeshua got when he was raised from among the dead?

First, the Tree of Life story did not originate in the Old Testament.  It was earlier used in the Babylonian tale, The Epic of Gilgamesh, who after finding it lost it to a serpent.  This story is much older than anything in the Old Testament and many of its elements were used by the bards and priests who created the stories (myths) we find in the Old Testament today.  This was necessary because in an oral society and even today, if you want someone to follow you or take action to support you, some of the new ideas you are proposing must be couched in terms that your audience is already familiar with.  (Salesmanship hasn’t changed all that much even with the internet.) LOL

 Signature 

Gary the Human

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6173
Joined  2009-02-26
garythehuman - 26 February 2011 01:18 PM

New Nature

What got me is how mankind was cut off from that life, that tree of life produced; it seems from that blog, that Yahweh has some kind life inside of himself? I guess this is the same kind of life Yeshua got when he was raised from among the dead?

First, the Tree of Life story did not originate in the Old Testament.  It was earlier used in the Babylonian tale, The Epic of Gilgamesh, who after finding it lost it to a serpent.  This story is much older than anything in the Old Testament and many of its elements were used by the bards and priests who created the stories (myths) we find in the Old Testament today.  This was necessary because in an oral society and even today, if you want someone to follow you or take action to support you, some of the new ideas you are proposing must be couched in terms that your audience is already familiar with.  (Salesmanship hasn’t changed all that much even with the internet.) LOL

Moreover, a religious sales job espouses “benefits” without need for proof or demonstration.

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 03:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6173
Joined  2009-02-26

Seems to me the analogy of the trees, would be the difference of remaining an instinctive animal within the natural cycle of life (tree of life) vs the development of human intelligence and exercising choice (tree of good and evil).
Within the analogy is the analogy of eating the fruit of the tree of “knowledge” which automatically set humans apart from the natural cycle and be “self exiled” (cast out) from paradise (Eden).

[ Edited: 26 February 2011 03:36 PM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 03:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1778
Joined  2007-10-22
Write4U - 26 February 2011 03:07 PM

Seems to me the analogy of the trees, would be the difference of remaining an instinctive animal within the natural cycle of life (tree of life) vs the development of human intelligence and exercising choice (tree of good and evil).
Within the analogy is the analogy of eating the fruit of the tree of “knowledge” which automatically set humans apart from the natural cycle and be “cast” out from paradise (Eden).

I keep getting a feeling, when I read or discuss these matters, that the originators of these myths would all think we are crazy.  They needed stories to explain the origin of life and the differences between to humans and animals, etc.  They did not have the knowledge and were not concerned with accurately recording the “scientific” aspects of these things.  THERE WAS NO SCIENCE IN THOSE DAYS.  What the originators of the Bible were doing was establishing the identity of a particular group of hill tribes, that included escaped slaves, vs. the inhabitants of the Eastern Medertrainian Coast who they were trying to dispossess, and they did this by producing a god called Jehovah, in opposition to the lowlander’s main god Baal.

 Signature 

Gary the Human

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6173
Joined  2009-02-26
garythehuman - 26 February 2011 03:37 PM
Write4U - 26 February 2011 03:07 PM

Seems to me the analogy of the trees, would be the difference of remaining an instinctive animal within the natural cycle of life (tree of life) vs the development of human intelligence and exercising choice (tree of good and evil).
Within the analogy is the analogy of eating the fruit of the tree of “knowledge” which automatically set humans apart from the natural cycle and be “cast” out from paradise (Eden).

I keep getting a feeling, when I read or discuss these matters, that the originators of these myths would all think we are crazy.  They needed stories to explain the origin of life and the differences between to humans and animals, etc.  They did not have the knowledge and were not concerned with accurately recording the “scientific” aspects of these things.  THERE WAS NO SCIENCE IN THOSE DAYS.  What the originators of the Bible were doing was establishing the identity of a particular group of hill tribes, that included escaped slaves, vs. the inhabitants of the Eastern Medertrainian Coast who they were trying to dispossess, and they did this by producing a god called Jehovah, in opposition to the lowlander’s main god Baal.

Yes, though scripture was written by true thinkers, the fact that there was no notion of science led to most of the analogies and parables. They all contain a kernel of truth (symbolism), but are scientifically inaccurate.

I have posted before that I should like to see a scientific and philosophic translation of all the allegories in scripture.

God = a natural metaphysical condition present during the beginning of the universe
Paradise = the natural world of life on earth (aside from humans)
Tree of life = natural cycle of life (with a suggestion of natural evolution)
Tree of knowledge of good and evil = the onset and evolution of human intelligence and choice (free will)
Creation (6 day) = god’s day is indeterminate in length (perhaps 6 1/2 billion years)
etc

I am not knowlegeable enough in all three areas to make a comprehensive list, but I am sure there are others who must be.

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 04:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1424
Joined  2010-04-22
Write4U - 26 February 2011 03:59 PM

I have posted before that I should like to see a scientific and philosophic translation of all the allegories in scripture.

I don’t think that this is really possible. Biblical scripture was written in a time when modern scientific concepts weren’t even on the horizon of human thought. At least, not in the areas where they were written; some of the ancient Greek philosopies come to mind for people who could be termed pre-scientific: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesian_school

For examlpe, I find that equating some kind of ancient concept of God to somehow be a harbinger of modern cosmology to be extremely weak. These are two concepts that are alien to each other and a “translation” is, to me, rather ridiculous.

 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 26 February 2011 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  81
Joined  2010-12-25

I thought you were talking about the movie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tree_of_Life_(film)

huh ?

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 4
2