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Homosexuals were made to be Homosexuals (Merged)
Posted: 19 April 2011 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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inthegobi - 19 April 2011 06:51 AM
Realitycheck - 19 April 2011 06:22 AM
inthegobi - 19 April 2011 05:51 AM

Homosexual attraction is - in a statistical not moral sense - a deviation from the norm. . . .

I beg to differ in part. Just because statistically there are fewer gays than hetero’s, does not argue in favour of homosexuality being a “deviation from the norm”. Had homosexuality suddenly appeared in the last 100 or 1000 years, perhaps. However, it has been with us as long as we have been us. Homosexual intercourse is also found amongst many mammals and so is both natural, as it is found in nature and normal, as it has always been with us.

Well, since it’s a small minority (2.5 % is the best estimate i’ve heard, from a mid-90’s study featured in uh, Time or Newsweek), it’s a deviation from the statistical norm by definition.

And it doesn’t matter that homosexual attraction has been around a long time. Undersized aspens have been growing for millions of years, but one-foot-tall adult aspens are still deviations from the norm for aspen-trees.

We can say all this without moving to talking about moral ‘deviation’: behavior that’s rare is not, just for that reason, behavior that’s immoral.


OK I can accept the inclusion of the word “statistical” as qualification. The “moral” aspect was not part of my concern as, unlike the religious, I don’t concern myself with the sexual mores of others.

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Posted: 19 April 2011 07:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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Realitycheck - 19 April 2011 06:58 AM

OK I can accept the inclusion of the word “statistical” as qualification. The “moral” aspect was not part of my concern as, unlike the religious, I don’t concern myself with the sexual mores of others.

Well, both the pro- and anti- homosexual camps (heh heh, ‘camp’) have falsely used statistics as an argument about the morality of homosexual behavior. The ‘pro’ argument is the famous 10% argument: that’s a big chunk of the population. The ‘anti’ side has used this in inverse: their claim is that only a very small percentage, typically said to be less than 1%, are gay, therefore there must be something wrong with it. You can see of course that both of these arguments have a hidden, absurd premiss: the morality of a behavior is directly proportional to its popularity.

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Posted: 19 April 2011 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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inthegobi - 19 April 2011 07:07 AM
Realitycheck - 19 April 2011 06:58 AM

OK I can accept the inclusion of the word “statistical” as qualification. The “moral” aspect was not part of my concern as, unlike the religious, I don’t concern myself with the sexual mores of others.

Well, both the pro- and anti- homosexual camps (heh heh, ‘camp’) have falsely used statistics as an argument about the morality of homosexual behavior. The ‘pro’ argument is the famous 10% argument: that’s a big chunk of the population. The ‘anti’ side has used this in inverse: their claim is that only a very small percentage, typically said to be less than 1%, are gay, therefore there must be something wrong with it. You can see of course that both of these arguments have a hidden, absurd premiss: the morality of a behavior is directly proportional to its popularity.

In the sense you mention, you are right about the absurdity of it. But in another sense, you are wrong in that anything, especially moral issues, the popularity of the thing can have a direct bearing on it’s acceptance and morality. An example, most North Americans feel it is wrong to eat horse meat. In many other parts of the world it is available on restaurant menu’s. And very tasty too. grin

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Posted: 19 April 2011 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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inthegobi - 19 April 2011 07:07 AM
Realitycheck - 19 April 2011 06:58 AM

OK I can accept the inclusion of the word “statistical” as qualification. The “moral” aspect was not part of my concern as, unlike the religious, I don’t concern myself with the sexual mores of others.

Well, both the pro- and anti- homosexual camps (heh heh, ‘camp’) have falsely used statistics as an argument about the morality of homosexual behavior. The ‘pro’ argument is the famous 10% argument: that’s a big chunk of the population. The ‘anti’ side has used this in inverse: their claim is that only a very small percentage, typically said to be less than 1%, are gay, therefore there must be something wrong with it. You can see of course that both of these arguments have a hidden, absurd premiss: the morality of a behavior is directly proportional to its popularity.

To be fair, I don’t think the “pro-” camp is making that sort of statistical argument, at least not always. It’s not so much, “It’s done by 10% so it’s moral”, I think it’s rather, “It’s moral and it’s done by 10% so it should have more sociopolitical acceptability; it shouldn’t be swept under the rug or forced into an unjustified shame”.

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Posted: 19 April 2011 07:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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(I should add that the “anti-” camp tends to argue from the Bible rather than the statistics ...)

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Posted: 19 April 2011 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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dougsmith - 19 April 2011 07:46 AM

To be fair, I don’t think the “pro-” camp is making that sort of statistical argument, at least not always.

Perhaps I’m screwing too much out of the slogan ‘we’re here, we’re queer’ and campus groups with names like Ten Percent of U. To my mind that’s a non-moral argument to accept homosexuality. If so many people do X and we haven’t died from moral disaster yet, then if X is not *moral* then it’s at least non-moral.

If it’s true as you say that the pro side often says it’s moral *and* etc., then they’ve just avoided the very issue that the anti group is disputing. Yes, Mr Pro says it’s moral (even virtuous to go with your feelings), and Mrs Anti says it’s immoral. The numbers stuff is just fog. Even if only one person in the whole world had a strong homosexual attraction, that says little directly about its morality one way or the other. Otherwise stamp-collecting is immoral, and gossipping is a great good, since so few people do the former and so many the latter.

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Posted: 19 April 2011 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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inthegobi - 19 April 2011 08:35 AM
dougsmith - 19 April 2011 07:46 AM

To be fair, I don’t think the “pro-” camp is making that sort of statistical argument, at least not always.

Perhaps I’m screwing too much out of the slogan ‘we’re here, we’re queer’ and campus groups with names like Ten Percent of U. To my mind that’s a non-moral argument to accept homosexuality. If so many people do X and we haven’t died from moral disaster yet, then if X is not *moral* then it’s at least non-moral.

If it’s true as you say that the pro side often says it’s moral *and* etc., then they’ve just avoided the very issue that the anti group is disputing. Yes, Mr Pro says it’s moral (even virtuous to go with your feelings), and Mrs Anti says it’s immoral. The numbers stuff is just fog. Even if only one person in the whole world had a strong homosexual attraction, that says little directly about its morality one way or the other. Otherwise stamp-collecting is immoral, and gossipping is a great good, since so few people do the former and so many the latter.

I think one would only say they ‘avoided’ the issue if one gave any credence to the ‘anti’ camp to begin with. I don’t. The rhetoric of the ‘antis’ is the same bigotry we’ve seen for centuries; anti women, anti black, anti ‘miscegenation’, etc. And from largely the same sociopolitical groups.

That’s to say, the ‘anti’ group is on its face simple bigotry. Sure, if one wants to one can go ahead and unpack precisely why it’s bigotry (homosexuality isn’t a choice, it hurts nobody, denying it causes great psychological stress, allowing it allows people to love one another, etc., etc.) without approaching the demographics.

The slogans you note are sociopolitical in their aims. They mean to point out that society needs to “get used” to them, since they’re a significant percentage of the populace and they’re not going to closet themselves any longer. The demographics do come in there, but I don’t think as part of the moral argument (at least, not necessarily. Of course there will be some philosophically unsophisticated who will try to argue from the numbers alone. As you note that’s not a workable argument).

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Posted: 19 April 2011 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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bjhulk - 28 February 2011 03:16 PM
dougsmith - 28 February 2011 03:13 PM
bjhulk - 28 February 2011 02:22 PM
Gnostikosis - 28 February 2011 02:19 PM

By what means do you come by this information?

I get all my knowledge directly from God.

So in other words we shouldn’t take anything you say seriously.

No you shouldn’t because God made you not to listen to him.

See that’s the problem.  Your God is a mind f#@k.  I won’t speak for others but I really hate mind f#@ks, I think they are contemptable.

Besides your God’s creation is booorriiing as heaven, I love evolution much more, because it is fun and interesting and real.
Also why does God always drown on endlessly can’t he be succinct if he’s so all knowing?

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Posted: 19 April 2011 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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sorry for jumping in on this late, but I’m feeling really pissy right now.  And God came along, couldn’t resist a few swipes.
~ ~ ~

The new AT&T phone sucks, all it wants to do is sign me up for apps/internet jazz and whatnot, when all I want is a phone - to see my address book and it’s great being able to see incoming out going # lists… still can’t find them… guess I gotta sign up for some “app”... who knows.
The new wifi is half again slower than the other one I was already irritated at and this one heats up like a light bulb… and I’m supposed to be a groovy luddite, but i really want to scream at some AT&T dude, but it’s no one’s fault or at least no one can do anything about it, especially not the poor “support personnel guy” who’s having enough trouble just trying to understand and speak English that there’s no brain space left to worry about my problems…

So don’t give me no God snot just now,

So how’s your day been? 

I know I know:
adapt or parish

Besides I thought we were talking about homosexuals in this thread. 
In that regard as a friend used to love pointing out, if not for homosexuals and their fashion sense, we skirt chas’in men would have never gotten past coveralls.

[ Edited: 19 April 2011 07:59 PM by citizenschallenge.pm ]
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