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I’ve changed my position, all Religions need to disappear
Posted: 17 March 2011 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Mriana - 15 March 2011 05:34 PM
Affluenza - 15 March 2011 05:58 AM
Mriana - 15 March 2011 04:53 AM
ExMachina - 14 March 2011 11:27 PM

Just because every Muslim doesn’t commit extreme actions, doesn’t mean they disagree with it.

Which takes us back to the beginning of this this thread.  Despite what people may think is good about a religion, there is still some psychological abuse that goes with it.  Even the Muslim have a concept of hell that is psychologically abusive and this really does a number on children who are born into it.  Religion also hijacks cognitive development and takes advantage of developmental stages in a way that isn’t psychologically healthy.

I think Andy Thompson showed this very well in his speech and said it a lot better than I just did:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg

Show me this psychological abuse please…

Hijacks cognative development? Show me some research that backs up this claim…

Thanks

Did you view the video?  Have you read Dr. Marlene Winell, Valerie Tarico, and Darrell Ray’s books?  In fact, check out some of Marlene’s videos on RTS:  http://www.youtube.com/user/trapezedance

RTS is not an official Dx, but she trying to get it known that people do suffer from religious abuse.

I have watched video’s and I even found the book by Marlene Winell…

I actually find her work to be exactly the same as those who indocrinate people into religion…those involved all had bad experiences with religion and she fills that void just like those who have had a bad time in life and turn to religion to fill a void…

Same work method (preying on the weak, disillusioned and disenfranchised)...just opposite spectrums. See her work is only affective if one is disillusioned with religion…her book would fail to get someone strong in “faith” to leave religion.

What I actually wanted when I asked for evidence…of what you call “hijacked cognitive development”...was some science, a study or two, some profiling or direct links to what you asserted.

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Posted: 17 March 2011 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Affluenza
Hijacks cognitive development?

The most basic form is evident in the expressions, “Thank God”, “God willing”, “God works in Mysterious ways”.

Terrorists use their lack of cognitive development to justify killing another human with the fatalistic expression “God willing”.
They endeavor to take it upon themselves to be a “stand-in” for God, in the hope that their actions will be allowed by God. The assumption is that if God is not willing, the terrorist will fail in his mission, but if God is willing he can blow up a few thousand innocent people, ignoring that God could not possibly wish that all of those people should die because they were guilty of being the infidel. But then I guess a terrorist would see that as “acceptable incidental losses” or “martyrdom” in the greater cause of Holy war.

IMO, that falls under cognitive dissonance (development), fostered by scriptural indoctrination.

[ Edited: 17 March 2011 09:52 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 17 March 2011 11:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Write4U - 17 March 2011 09:47 AM

Affluenza
Hijacks cognitive development?

The most basic form is evident in the expressions, “Thank God”, “God willing”, “God works in Mysterious ways”.

Terrorists use their lack of cognitive development to justify killing another human with the fatalistic expression “God willing”.
They endeavor to take it upon themselves to be a “stand-in” for God, in the hope that their actions will be allowed by God. The assumption is that if God is not willing, the terrorist will fail in his mission, but if God is willing he can blow up a few thousand innocent people, ignoring that God could not possibly wish that all of those people should die because they were guilty of being the infidel. But then I guess a terrorist would see that as “acceptable incidental losses” or “martyrdom” in the greater cause of Holy war.

IMO, that falls under cognitive dissonance (development), fostered by scriptural indoctrination.

Hmm…I bolded where I disagree.

You talk about terrorists (islamic terrorists since the IRA have not been relevant for some years) but the driving force for doing their evil is not related to scriptures but actually being led by other people (not their god) who want them to do harm to others. They are led to believe that their god wills it…they are led to believe that what they are doing is for a greater good…they are led to believe that it is defined in their scriptures…they are led to believe they will be wiping their sins and going to heaven.

If it’s in the scriptures (scriptual indoctrination you assert being the cause of said terrorism)...every single muslim by default is a terrorist…

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Posted: 17 March 2011 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Affluenza - 17 March 2011 11:06 AM

If it’s in the scriptures (scriptual indoctrination you assert being the cause of said terrorism)...every single muslim by default is a terrorist…

It’s not what the scriptures say, it that those who misled the people use the presumed authority given to the scripture by religious ideology.

The Koran and Bible have no greater authority to dictate human morality then you or I. However because of the perception of authority given to these writings they can be misused to cause people to accept the authority of religious leaders that there is really no justification for.

That you can find some philosophy, morality or ideology in the writing that you can interpret/understand in a way that supports you morality, that you kind beneficial, that you feel makes your life and maybe someone else’s life better is not the issue. Personally I find moral inspiration in the words of Jesus. However I judge those words on their own merits. Jesus and Mohammad have no special authority beyond being human like the rest of us.

Religions however abuse those words to give themselves the authority of “God” to dictate right and wrong and morality to the masses.

To go out a say that you think Jesus and Mohammad were very wise men and people could learn a great deal about life, in your opinion, that’s one thing. However to claim that these words carry the authority of a divine being who dictates what is right and wrong and the religious leadership of some particular religion is also authorized by God to dictate the proper interpretation of those words is abusive.

People need to question the morality of the idealism of their religious beliefs. However if they are taught at an early age that what some idiot dictates as moral carries the authority of God they will see no reason to question that authority. At least not without a great deal of intervention.

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Posted: 17 March 2011 03:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Affluenza - 17 March 2011 11:06 AM
If it’s in the scriptures (scriptual indoctrination you assert being the cause of said terrorism)...every single muslim by default is a terrorist…

I agree with Gnost, but also have a secondary argument in addition.

When a government and its constitution is founded on the words in scripture (Theocracy), the scripture is acknowledged as the lawful and legal doctrine for that civilization. Is it any wonder that there are countries which employ “moral police"which advocate and practice public stoning, humiliation and worse.  The clergy of Iran has declared fatwas and death sentences simply for critiquing the Qu’ran in a book, or publishing a cartoon (give me a break!). If that does not foster terrorism from cognitive ignorance, I don’t know what does.
To me that makes the entire country a potential terrorist state.

The doctrine of “Separation of Church and State” is one of the most profound aspects in the US constitution. It prevents the establishment of theocratic laws which dictate everyday morality, and prevents a person in the throes of holy rapture from acting on the belief that it is not only morally, but also legally permissible to commit acts of terrorism.

[ Edited: 17 March 2011 07:27 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 17 March 2011 04:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Gnostikosis - 17 March 2011 12:15 PM
Affluenza - 17 March 2011 11:06 AM

If it’s in the scriptures (scriptual indoctrination you assert being the cause of said terrorism)...every single muslim by default is a terrorist…

It’s not what the scriptures say, it that those who misled the people use the presumed authority given to the scripture by religious ideology.

The Koran and Bible have no greater authority to dictate human morality then you or I. However because of the perception of authority given to these writings they can be misused to cause people to accept the authority of religious leaders that there is really no justification for.

That you can find some philosophy, morality or ideology in the writing that you can interpret/understand in a way that supports you morality, that you kind beneficial, that you feel makes your life and maybe someone else’s life better is not the issue. Personally I find moral inspiration in the words of Jesus. However I judge those words on their own merits. Jesus and Mohammad have no special authority beyond being human like the rest of us.

Religions however abuse those words to give themselves the authority of “God” to dictate right and wrong and morality to the masses.

To go out a say that you think Jesus and Mohammad were very wise men and people could learn a great deal about life, in your opinion, that’s one thing. However to claim that these words carry the authority of a divine being who dictates what is right and wrong and the religious leadership of some particular religion is also authorized by God to dictate the proper interpretation of those words is abusive.

People need to question the morality of the idealism of their religious beliefs. However if they are taught at an early age that what some idiot dictates as moral carries the authority of God they will see no reason to question that authority. At least not without a great deal of intervention.

I agree with you pretty much… smile

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Posted: 17 March 2011 06:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Affluenza - 17 March 2011 09:12 AM
Mriana - 15 March 2011 05:34 PM
Affluenza - 15 March 2011 05:58 AM
Mriana - 15 March 2011 04:53 AM
ExMachina - 14 March 2011 11:27 PM

Just because every Muslim doesn’t commit extreme actions, doesn’t mean they disagree with it.

Which takes us back to the beginning of this this thread.  Despite what people may think is good about a religion, there is still some psychological abuse that goes with it.  Even the Muslim have a concept of hell that is psychologically abusive and this really does a number on children who are born into it.  Religion also hijacks cognitive development and takes advantage of developmental stages in a way that isn’t psychologically healthy.

I think Andy Thompson showed this very well in his speech and said it a lot better than I just did:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg

Show me this psychological abuse please…

Hijacks cognative development? Show me some research that backs up this claim…

Thanks

Did you view the video?  Have you read Dr. Marlene Winell, Valerie Tarico, and Darrell Ray’s books?  In fact, check out some of Marlene’s videos on RTS:  http://www.youtube.com/user/trapezedance

RTS is not an official Dx, but she trying to get it known that people do suffer from religious abuse.

I have watched video’s and I even found the book by Marlene Winell…

I actually find her work to be exactly the same as those who indocrinate people into religion…those involved all had bad experiences with religion and she fills that void just like those who have had a bad time in life and turn to religion to fill a void…

Same work method (preying on the weak, disillusioned and disenfranchised)...just opposite spectrums. See her work is only affective if one is disillusioned with religion…her book would fail to get someone strong in “faith” to leave religion.

What I actually wanted when I asked for evidence…of what you call “hijacked cognitive development”...was some science, a study or two, some profiling or direct links to what you asserted.

I gave you other links besides hers as to how religion hijacks developmental stages.  As for Marlene, she does not try to fill any void.  That is up to the individual to find that.  That is hardly what she is about.  She is about healing from the damage that religion can do to people, not to fill any void.

Have you found Valerie Tarico’s book, “Trusting Doubt”?  Darrell Ray’s book, “The God Virus”?  Viewed the whole video on “Why We Believe In Gods?”  I gave you a whole list of things that you could not have possibly read just yet.  Not only that, I don’t think you have read all of Marlene’s book to a good idea of it.  There is plenty of evidence that religion hijacks developmental stages and that video is just one of them.

IMHO, Affluenza, and this is not the only thread, but I sometimes get the feeling you intentionality disagree, without anything to back up your own claims, in order to disagree.  Strangely enough, I have put out several things that shows how religion can be abusive and also hijack developmental stages.  I haven’t seen anything from you that says the opposite, but it would take more than just one article, video, or book to show me otherwise, esp since I have a degree in psychology too.  I understand what Andy Thompson and others are saying and it seems as plain as day to me.

BTW, Marlene is also not trying to indoctrinate anyone or even influence anyone to leave religion.  She’s not trying to do any of the things you have accused her of, but rather she is trying to help others.  You don’t even know her well enough to say such things, which I have also pointed out to you before.  You seem to have a habit of doing such things to many people.

[ Edited: 17 March 2011 07:27 PM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 17 March 2011 07:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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Mriana - 17 March 2011 06:53 PM
Affluenza - 17 March 2011 09:12 AM
Mriana - 15 March 2011 05:34 PM
Affluenza - 15 March 2011 05:58 AM
Mriana - 15 March 2011 04:53 AM
ExMachina - 14 March 2011 11:27 PM

Just because every Muslim doesn’t commit extreme actions, doesn’t mean they disagree with it.

Which takes us back to the beginning of this this thread.  Despite what people may think is good about a religion, there is still some psychological abuse that goes with it.  Even the Muslim have a concept of hell that is psychologically abusive and this really does a number on children who are born into it.  Religion also hijacks cognitive development and takes advantage of developmental stages in a way that isn’t psychologically healthy.

I think Andy Thompson showed this very well in his speech and said it a lot better than I just did:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg

Show me this psychological abuse please…

Hijacks cognative development? Show me some research that backs up this claim…

Thanks

Did you view the video?  Have you read Dr. Marlene Winell, Valerie Tarico, and Darrell Ray’s books?  In fact, check out some of Marlene’s videos on RTS:  http://www.youtube.com/user/trapezedance

RTS is not an official Dx, but she trying to get it known that people do suffer from religious abuse.

I have watched video’s and I even found the book by Marlene Winell…

I actually find her work to be exactly the same as those who indocrinate people into religion…those involved all had bad experiences with religion and she fills that void just like those who have had a bad time in life and turn to religion to fill a void…

Same work method (preying on the weak, disillusioned and disenfranchised)...just opposite spectrums. See her work is only affective if one is disillusioned with religion…her book would fail to get someone strong in “faith” to leave religion.

What I actually wanted when I asked for evidence…of what you call “hijacked cognitive development”...was some science, a study or two, some profiling or direct links to what you asserted.

I gave you other links besides hers as to how religion hijacks developmental stages.  As for Marlene, she does not try to fill any void.  That is up to the individual to find that.  That is hardly what she is about.  She is about healing from the damage that religion can do to people, not to fill any void.

Have you found Valerie Tarico’s book, “Trusting Doubt”?  Darrell Ray’s book, “The God Virus”?  Viewed the whole video on “Why We Believe In Gods?”  I gave you a whole list of things that you could not have possibly read just yet.  Not only that, I don’t think you have read all of Marlene’s book to a good idea of it.  There is plenty of evidence that religion hijacks developmental stages and that video is just one of them.

IMHO, Affluenza, and this is not the only thread, but I sometimes get the feeling you intentionality disagree, without anything to back up your own claims, in order to disagree.  Strangely enough, I have put out several things that shows how religion can be abusive and also hijack developmental stages.  I haven’t seen anything from you that says the opposite, but it would take more than just one article, video, or book to show me otherwise, esp since I have a degree in psychology too.  I understand what Andy Thompson and others are saying and it seems as plain as day to me.

I’m not being intentionally disagreeable but the stuff you give me to check out is…how can I say “not neutral” to the perspective…there is a clear agenda behind it all and I’m a cynical person. I question everything. Which might be annoying but I like clarity and understanding.

Which is why I asked for actual studies done i.e by institutions and organisations which can validate what you assert without giving me their 2 cents about “what they think”. Anyone can write a book and chair discussions. You may feel that these things alone stand for your arguement and you might be right but really what I’m after is very definitive facts and evidence.

I don’t need to provide evidence because you are the one asserting that religion hijacks…Thus the burden of proof is on you. Also telling me to go check person a), b) and c) is not giving evidence of anything…now I watched the videos and managed to get hold of Marlenes book but this latter thing alone is beyond what is expected of normal forum discussions usually you should be the one to provide the information you have for us…so we may absorb it and give our thoughts.

Now on to the discussion at hand…see my major problem is this; if what you assert is true than as a society we need to look into this and how much harm it really does. I see more faith schools now (especially of the private donor and foundation kind) which have government backing…now if you’re correct than I shudder as to why governments would give the go ahead to what is essentially education mixed with religious brainwashing…

You see my problem?

Mriana - 17 March 2011 06:53 PM

BTW, Marlene is also not trying to indoctrinate anyone or even influence anyone to leave religion.  She’s not trying to do any of the things you have accused her of, but rather she is trying to help others.  You don’t even know her well enough to say such things, which I have also pointed out to you before.  You seem to have a habit of doing such things to many people.

Oh c’mon…

You cannot be this naive? Someone does not just write a book regarding how to get over religious indoctrination if they don’t think they can get people to get to their way of thinking…

I’m going to call a spade a spade…I don’t know why you would have a problem with this. She didn’t write the book as a memoir…it’s clearly mean’t to reach out to people. It is what it is. She never reached out to actual people happy with their faith…she clearly targets those who have had a bad experience. So tell me where I am wrong in making the comparison to for example a pastor reaching out to those who have experienced death or are vulnerable? It’s exactly the same work method i.e preying on the weak.

You may see it as “good” because it’s one less religious nut but it is the same tactics religion uses to convert.

[ Edited: 17 March 2011 08:13 PM by Affluenza ]
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Posted: 17 March 2011 08:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Affluenza - 17 March 2011 07:47 PM

I’m not being intentionally disagreeable but the stuff you give me to check out is…how can I say “not neutral” to the perspective…there is a clear agenda behind it all and I’m a cynical person. I question everything. Which might be annoying but I like clarity and understanding.

Of course it isn’t going to be neutral.  You asked for evidence as to how it hijacks developmental stages and all.  I gave you that.

Which is why I asked for actual studies done i.e by institutions and organisations which can validate what you assert without giving me their 2 cents about “what they think”. Anyone can write a book and chair a discussions. You may feel that these things alone stand for your arguement and you might be right but really what I’m after is very definitive facts and evidence.

For your information, that is the research happening currently and that is what many are finding.

I don’t need to provide evidence because you are the one asserting that religion hijacks…Thus the burden of proof is on you.

And I gave you quite a few sources and you’ve only checked out one of them, as far as I can tell.

You see if what you assert is true than as a society we need to look into this and how much harm it really does. I see more faith schools now (especially of the private donor and foundation kind) which have government backing…now if you’re correct than I shudder as to why governments would give the go ahead to what is essentially education mixed with religious brainwashing…

YES!  As a society we do need to look at this because there are a LOT of people being harmed by religion and there will be even more people harmed with more faith based schools.  This is not personal opinion, it is a matter of fact.  Not everyone suffers repercussions, but quite a few people do.  There is a lot of abuse that happens in religious sects and Exmachina’s nightmares about hell are only one example of that.  The reason why the gov. would give the go ahead is they are currently being influenced by the Religious Reich and have been for quite a few years now.  It is Xian extremists forcing these things on others.

You see my problem?

No, I don’t.  I can only assume you mindlessly support religion without seeing the harm it does to people.  So what is your problem?  That you want to think “Oh the gov. supports religion, so therefore it must be good, despite what psychologists are saying”?

Mriana - 17 March 2011 06:53 PM

BTW, Marlene is also not trying to indoctrinate anyone or even influence anyone to leave religion.  She’s not trying to do any of the things you have accused her of, but rather she is trying to help others.  You don’t even know her well enough to say such things, which I have also pointed out to you before.  You seem to have a habit of doing such things to many people.

Oh c’mon…

You cannot be this naive? Someone does not just write a book regarding how to get over religious indoctrination if they don’t think they can get people to get to their way of thinking…

I’m going to call a spade a spade…I don’t know why you would have a problem with this. She didn’t write the book as a memoir…it’s clearly mean’t to reach out to people.

She’s a psychologist.  She has a Ph. D. and I have a degree in psychology also.  I know from education and experience what she is saying is accurate.  I am not naive at all, but educated about the subject.  Not only that, I happen to know Marlene personally, if you must know, which puts me in a better position of knowing what her intent is, than it does you.  Yes, she wants to reach out to people, but she wants to reach out to those how have been abused and/or by religious indoctrination and as a psychologist she wants to help them get over that.  Memoir?  LOL  You don’t have a clue do you?  No, it’s not a memoir.  My book is, but hers isn’t, but some of her experiences are part of it.  Yes, I do have a book out concerning my own experiences, as well as resources to get help and do some research on the subject, but it isn’t a Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, or Christopher Hitchens book.

I don’t know why I’m even bothering, except for the fact that Exmachina and others have acquired information that might be of help to them, if they are interested.  They, or at least she does, know because they have obviously experienced what I’m talking about.  I can only assume you either don’t have a clue or you swamped in religion yourself, so much so that you can’t or won’t see that it has such problems.

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Posted: 17 March 2011 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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I’ve updated my post sorry.

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Posted: 17 March 2011 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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Affluenza - 17 March 2011 08:14 PM

I’ve updated my post sorry.

It’s OK I think I can pick up what you added, with ignorance, adding to what I said before you updated your post.

She never reached out to actual people happy with their faith…she clearly targets those who have had a bad experience. So tell me where I am wrong in making the comparison to for example a pastor reaching out to those who have experienced death or are vulnerable? It’s exactly the same work method i.e preying on the weak.

You may see it as “good” because it’s one less religious nut but it is the same tactics religion uses to convert.

Of course she is targeting a certain group of people, because there is a problem that has causes people great harm.  She wants to help people and she has been there also, BUT she is NOT the only psychologist saying these things.  She is NOT preying on the weak, but helping others recover from their experience as a psychologist.  This is no where near anything a minister does, because it isn’t psychological damaging, but rather it is psychologically healing.

And no, she isn’t using the same tactics.  You really should read her book before you make such judgement calls, as well as dig deeper into the other links and books I suggested you.  You are making a judgement call before thoroughly examming evening, including Marlene’s book.  Making snap judgements about something before actually viewing/reading that whole thing as well as the rest of the sources, really isn’t being a skeptic.  It is forming an opinion without all the facts.

[ Edited: 17 March 2011 08:24 PM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 17 March 2011 08:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:13 PM

Affluenza - 17 March 2011 07:47 PM

I’m not being intentionally disagreeable but the stuff you give me to check out is…how can I say “not neutral” to the perspective…there is a clear agenda behind it all and I’m a cynical person. I question everything. Which might be annoying but I like clarity and understanding.

Of course it isn’t going to be neutral.  You asked for evidence as to how it hijacks developmental stages and all.  I gave you that.

It’s not much of a source of knowledge if it’s laced with bias.

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:13 PM

No, I don’t.  I can only assume you mindlessly support religion without seeing the harm it does to people.  So what is your problem?  That you want to think “Oh the gov. supports religion, so therefore it must be good, despite what psychologists are saying”?

Ofcourse…I like to believe they don’t do things to harm it’s citizens…I can understand the lying to us but actual harm? That’s territory very different.

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:13 PM

She’s a psychologist.  She has a Ph. D. and I have a degree in psychology also.  I know from education and experience what she is saying is accurate.  I am not naive at all, but educated about the subject.  Not only that, I happen to know Marlene personally, if you must know, which puts me in a better position of knowing what her intent is, than it does you.  Yes, she wants to reach out to people, but she wants to reach out to those how have been abused and/or by religious indoctrination and as a psychologist she wants to help them get over that.  Memoir?  LOL  You don’t have a clue do you?  No, it’s not a memoir.  My book is, but hers isn’t, but some of her experiences are part of it.  Yes, I do have a book out concerning my own experiences, as well as resources to get help and do some research on the subject, but it isn’t a Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, or Christopher Hitchens book.

So we agree…you just disagree on the way I phrase it.

Congrats on writing your own book… smile

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:13 PM

I don’t know why I’m even bothering, except for the fact that Exmachina and others have acquired information that might be of help to them, if they are interested.  They, or at least she does, know because they have obviously experienced what I’m talking about.  I can only assume you either don’t have a clue or you swamped in religion yourself, so much so that you can’t or won’t see that it has such problems.

I’m not swamped by religion…

I’m an avid human rights campaigner…and so if you see me standing up for religion it’s usually because someone is discriminating somewhere and you bet I’ll make a call out…infact as I’ve said to exmachina I see no difference between the hate he preaches and the hate of someone with a religious agenda preaches…it’s all the same to me.

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Posted: 17 March 2011 08:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Affluenza - 17 March 2011 08:37 PM
Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:13 PM

Affluenza - 17 March 2011 07:47 PM

I’m not being intentionally disagreeable but the stuff you give me to check out is…how can I say “not neutral” to the perspective…there is a clear agenda behind it all and I’m a cynical person. I question everything. Which might be annoying but I like clarity and understanding.

Of course it isn’t going to be neutral.  You asked for evidence as to how it hijacks developmental stages and all.  I gave you that.

It’s not much of a source of knowledge if it’s laced with bias.

It’s not at all bias.  You just haven’t thoroughly read what she has to say nor have you read or viewed any of the other sources I gave you.

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:13 PM

No, I don’t.  I can only assume you mindlessly support religion without seeing the harm it does to people.  So what is your problem?  That you want to think “Oh the gov. supports religion, so therefore it must be good, despite what psychologists are saying”?

Ofcourse…I like to believe they don’t do things to harm it’s citizens…I can understand the lying to us but actual harm? That’s territory very different.

I’m talking about psychological harm.  It’s not all intentional, but they do do harm to others, esp children.  It all starts in childhood.

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:13 PM

She’s a psychologist.  She has a Ph. D. and I have a degree in psychology also.  I know from education and experience what she is saying is accurate.  I am not naive at all, but educated about the subject.  Not only that, I happen to know Marlene personally, if you must know, which puts me in a better position of knowing what her intent is, than it does you.  Yes, she wants to reach out to people, but she wants to reach out to those how have been abused and/or by religious indoctrination and as a psychologist she wants to help them get over that.  Memoir?  LOL  You don’t have a clue do you?  No, it’s not a memoir.  My book is, but hers isn’t, but some of her experiences are part of it.  Yes, I do have a book out concerning my own experiences, as well as resources to get help and do some research on the subject, but it isn’t a Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, or Christopher Hitchens book.

So we agree…you just disagree on the way I phrase it.

Congrats on writing your own book… smile

I find how you are stating things offensive, yes, esp when you haven’t read what she has to say and don’t know a thing about her.  And before you say, “And you do?” Please take note that I do know her personally.

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:13 PM

I don’t know why I’m even bothering, except for the fact that Exmachina and others have acquired information that might be of help to them, if they are interested.  They, or at least she does, know because they have obviously experienced what I’m talking about.  I can only assume you either don’t have a clue or you swamped in religion yourself, so much so that you can’t or won’t see that it has such problems.

I’m not swamped by religion…

I’m an avid human rights campaigner…and so if you see me standing up for religion it’s usually because someone is discriminating somewhere and you bet I’ll make a call out…infact as I’ve said to exmachina I see no difference between the hate he preaches and the hate of someone with a religious agenda preaches…it’s all the same to me.

But you are religious?  I can see that and I’m not being discriminating at all.  I’m being honest.  You’re not calling me out on anything.  What you are doing is showing ignorance in favour of supporting religion, without getting all the facts as to how it hijacks developmental stages and does psychological harm to people.  This is not discrimination, but a psychological fact, which you will find if you actually dig into the subject and get to know those who have been harmed by religion.  These aren’t JUST people who have had a bad experience with religion, they are actual people who have suffered traumatizing experiences at the hands of the religious.  Who is he?  Who is preaching hate?  No one is preaching hate.  They are stating psychological facts that do happen to people at the hands of the religious and from religious dogma, as am I.  To call call such abuses human rights and to campaign for it, is not advocating human rights.  It is enabling abuse, in this case dogmatic religious abuse, which INHUMANE and I will call someone out on that.  Unfortunately, in this case, I’ve been calling you out on it.

[ Edited: 17 March 2011 08:50 PM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 17 March 2011 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:48 PM

But you are religious?

No…I’m not religious. As I’ve stated in other posts…I’m agnostic…

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:48 PM

I can see that and I’m not being discriminating at all.  I’m being honest.  You’re not calling me out on anything.  What you are doing is showing ignorance in favour of supporting religion, without getting all the facts as to how it hijacks developmental stages and does psychological harm to people.  This is not discrimination, but a psychological fact, which you will find if you actually dig into the subject and get to know those who have been harmed by religion.  These aren’t JUST people who have had a bad experience with religion, they are actual people who have suffered traumatizing experiences at the hands of the religious.  Who is he?  Who is preaching hate?  No one is preaching hate.  They are stating psychological facts that do happen to people at the hands of the religious and from religious dogma, as am I.

I haven’t seen any facts…Which is what I’ve been asking for and you have provided bias sources with an agenda…I’m sorry but if you make assertions which are not public knowledge than you do need to come up with something which is balanced…how are we to know if the bias sources haven’t pulled it out of their ass?

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:48 PM

To call call such abuses human rights and to campaign for it, is not advocating human rights.  It is enabling abuse, in this case dogmatic religious abuse, which INHUMANE and I will call someone out on that.  Unfortunately, in this case, I’ve been calling you out on it.

This religious abuse you speak of we got it covered already and so does the rest of humanity. It’s always the case of someone abusing their position of influence and power…to get your brush out and paint religion responsible is misguided and opportunistic.

If a teen guns down his school colleagues we prosecute him like any other…the gun is never to blame. If someone crashes a car we don’t blame the car…you blame the one who is responsible for driving.

This line of thought goes with everything else…including religion and those who commit evil in it’s name…that may be unfortunate for you but that is the way things work.

[ Edited: 17 March 2011 09:40 PM by Affluenza ]
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Posted: 17 March 2011 11:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Affluenza - 17 March 2011 09:24 PM
Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:48 PM

But you are religious?

No…I’m not religious. As I’ve stated in other posts…I’m agnostic…

Right

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:48 PM

I can see that and I’m not being discriminating at all.  I’m being honest.  You’re not calling me out on anything.  What you are doing is showing ignorance in favour of supporting religion, without getting all the facts as to how it hijacks developmental stages and does psychological harm to people.  This is not discrimination, but a psychological fact, which you will find if you actually dig into the subject and get to know those who have been harmed by religion.  These aren’t JUST people who have had a bad experience with religion, they are actual people who have suffered traumatizing experiences at the hands of the religious.  Who is he?  Who is preaching hate?  No one is preaching hate.  They are stating psychological facts that do happen to people at the hands of the religious and from religious dogma, as am I.

I haven’t seen any facts…Which is what I’ve been asking for and you have provided bias sources with an agenda…I’m sorry but if you make assertions which are not public knowledge than you do need to come up with something which is balanced…how are we to know if the bias sources haven’t pulled it out of their ass?

You have hardly scratched the surface, so you I don’t think you can state emphatically they are biased.  They do have an agenda, but not the ones you accuse them of.  Their agenda is to help others and they are not pulling things out of their asses.  Seems to me you are still blinded by religion.

Mriana - 17 March 2011 08:48 PM

To call call such abuses human rights and to campaign for it, is not advocating human rights.  It is enabling abuse, in this case dogmatic religious abuse, which INHUMANE and I will call someone out on that.  Unfortunately, in this case, I’ve been calling you out on it.

This religious abuse you speak of we got it covered already and so does the rest of humanity. It’s always the case of someone abusing their position of influence and power…to get your brush out and paint religion responsible is misguided and opportunistic.

That is an excuse not to face the facts of the matter and it is a bunch of BS.  The idea of hell is a prime example of psychological abuse and hijacks a very important developmental stage, as seen in Andy Thompson’s video and is mentioned in the other sources I mentioned.  There is nothing bias about these sources.  They are spelling out some facts of psychology and human development.

If a teen guns down his school colleagues we prosecute him like any other…the gun is never to blame. If someone crashes a car we don’t blame the car…you blame the one who is responsible for driving.

You don’t get it at all.  We are not talking about guns or cars and you are totally not getting the point because you haven’t read or viewed anything that I’ve pointed out to you and don’t say you have because it would take a whole lot long than 24 hours or less to do so.  We are talking about religious dogma that is psychologically abusive.  It’s crazy making.  This has nothing to do with what you are assuming.  People create religious dogma and force on others, especially children and this dogma is very abusive and even enables abuse.  Be that as it may, you are totally not getting the point and seem to be refusing to understand it.  Once you have honestly read and research what dogmatic ideology can do people, esp children, then maybe you will get what the psychologists are saying, as well as what I’m trying to say.  Religious ideology can do a real psychological number on people and I gave you one of the examples that is most common.

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