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I’ve changed my position, all Religions need to disappear
Posted: 18 March 2011 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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Mriana - 17 March 2011 11:07 PM

That is an excuse not to face the facts of the matter and it is a bunch of BS.  The idea of hell is a prime example of psychological abuse and hijacks a very important developmental stage, as seen in Andy Thompson’s video and is mentioned in the other sources I mentioned.  There is nothing bias about these sources.  They are spelling out some facts of psychology and human development.

I’m still waiting for you to show me a source which is independent and don’t lace their research with their agenda. If it’s common knowledge and you assert “fact” you should be able to show me some independent studies to corroborate…I asked how many times now?

Mriana - 17 March 2011 11:07 PM

You don’t get it at all.  We are not talking about guns or cars and you are totally not getting the point because you haven’t read or viewed anything that I’ve pointed out to you and don’t say you have because it would take a whole lot long than 24 hours or less to do so.  We are talking about religious dogma that is psychologically abusive.  It’s crazy making.  This has nothing to do with what you are assuming.  People create religious dogma and force on others, especially children and this dogma is very abusive and even enables abuse.  Be that as it may, you are totally not getting the point and seem to be refusing to understand it.  Once you have honestly read and research what dogmatic ideology can do people, esp children, then maybe you will get what the psychologists are saying, as well as what I’m trying to say.  Religious ideology can do a real psychological number on people and I gave you one of the examples that is most common.

You talk about religious dogma as if it’s a modern phenomena…people have lived for thousands of years with various forms of religious dogma and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future…that a minority of people get messed up by other people...not religion but people is unfortunate…but we have to face the facts the majority of people brought up on faith go on to either continue with faith or drop it completely at some stage in their life…and don’t get affected by their earlier indoctination. I was brought up a catholic and I’m now agnostic and I have no trauma from various years of being told about hell and sin etc to recount of…

Marlenes book is only of interest if you are looking to free yourself from religion…since I am free from religion it essentially doesn’t contain anything I haven’t encountered nor didn’t already believe in. I read quite a bit and I shall not be reading further…especially given the fact that it would be a mute point. I took the time to actually look at one of your recommendations but as I said I am after a more balanced view…the cynic in me just can’t accept a one sided telling of the misery and constraints of religion. Sorry.

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Posted: 20 March 2011 04:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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Early in this thread Affluenza says that the koran must be taken in historical context.  While I accept that all muslims, or theists in general, are not focused on the damnation or destruction of non-believers, I don’t think that’s because they have carefully read their “holy” books in an “appropriate” context.  Unless we can all agree on some new “revealed wisdom” which clarifies the intentions of the authors, it’s pointless to argue about context.  Anyone is free to construct and promote their own “context”.  It can be pacifistic or violent or promote anything at all.

I have no time to spend studying texts which claim to consist of “revealed knowledge” in an attempt to ascertain the moral or ethical validity of those texts.  Revealed knowledge, especially revealed knowledge which claims that one will be punished for not blindly accepting that information has no validity to me.  I don’t have to study the bible and koran to question their validity any more than I need to read “Harry Potter”, or “The Hobbit”, to question the validity of the information in those texts.  Made up, undocumented, information is fantasy not information. 

Those texts are worth studying, but only as a means of attempting to understand the mindset and values of people and cultures which allow themselves to be influenced by them. Most of them are incoherent and contradictory.  They can as easily be construed to promote violence, slavery misogyny, racism, etc. as any kind of constructive behavior depending on the “context” they are seen in. It is that fact, rather than the import of any passage or quote, which should determine how we treat them.  Texts like this should be preserved as artifacts of our past, and much as we study “The Iliad”, studied only in the “context” their influence on the development of the human race,

I think the question we should be asking is not:  Are Islamic societies inherently dangerous?, but, understanding the faults and dangers of books the koran or bible,we should be asking: How do we deal with societies where such problematic texts are considered inviolate?

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Posted: 20 March 2011 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Jeciron - 20 March 2011 04:42 AM

Early in this thread Affluenza says that the koran must be taken in historical context.  While I accept that all muslims, or theists in general, are not focused on the damnation or destruction of non-believers, I don’t think that’s because they have carefully read their “holy” books in an “appropriate” context.  Unless we can all agree on some new “revealed wisdom” which clarifies the intentions of the authors, it’s pointless to argue about context.  Anyone is free to construct and promote their own “context”.  It can be pacifistic or violent or promote anything at all.

I have no time to spend studying texts which claim to consist of “revealed knowledge” in an attempt to ascertain the moral or ethical validity of those texts.  Revealed knowledge, especially revealed knowledge which claims that one will be punished for not blindly accepting that information has no validity to me.  I don’t have to study the bible and koran to question their validity any more than I need to read “Harry Potter”, or “The Hobbit”, to question the validity of the information in those texts.  Made up, undocumented, information is fantasy not information. 

Those texts are worth studying, but only as a means of attempting to understand the mindset and values of people and cultures which allow themselves to be influenced by them. Most of them are incoherent and contradictory.  They can as easily be construed to promote violence, slavery misogyny, racism, etc. as any kind of constructive behavior depending on the “context” they are seen in. It is that fact, rather than the import of any passage or quote, which should determine how we treat them.  Texts like this should be preserved as artifacts of our past, and much as we study “The Iliad”, studied only in the “context” their influence on the development of the human race,

I think the question we should be asking is not:  Are Islamic societies inherently dangerous?, but, understanding the faults and dangers of books the koran or bible,we should be asking: How do we deal with societies where such problematic texts are considered inviolate?

Wow…

Context is important. Context refers to the who, what, when, where, why and how…it’s a device that gives us meaning, facts and effect to our understanding.

Even a book like Harry Potter needs to give the reader all the above…otherwise how would they know he is an orphan, that he’s a wizard through bloodline, attends Hogwarts and needs to defeat Voldemort in order to stop his plans to rid the world of muggles!

Maybe you don’t understand what context is…but with no context there is no meaning or understanding.

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Posted: 21 March 2011 02:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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Affluenza - 18 March 2011 09:08 AM

that a minority of people get messed up by other people...not religion but people is unfortunate…

`
religion only exists through the people who practice it.

It isn’t some ‘objective’ thing that somehow exists ‘outside’ of human beings.


When religion messes people up, it’s people messing up other people.

`

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Posted: 21 March 2011 02:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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Affluenza my problem with religions in general aren’t that I think they’ll all commit violent act, but that religions create a separation within society. All us, non-believers apparently defy and hate the very God we don’t believe in. If you can figure that one out, I’d really like to hear it.

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Posted: 21 March 2011 04:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Of course context is important. 

Part of viewing theistic religious books like the bible and the koran in context is understanding that they are no more reality based then any other bronze age mythology, and they are so self contradictory and incoherent that no one, no matter how much one quotes these texts, in whatever specified context, can prove their interpretation of these texts in a way that is unchallengeable .  I value mythology and fantasy because of what they illustrate about how human beings think and function.  But when I read the Iliad I don’t read it to find out how I must properly worship the mythological bronze age gods, or to make a claim that the “Iliad” is the reason modern Greeks are violent or peaceful.  If you quoted a section of the text to me and told me it proved that if I didn’t burn entrails properly the gods would look on me with disfavor and I’d be chained to a rock and have my liver torn out daily, and, by the way, if I disagreed you had an obligation to kill me, I’d be a whole lot more concerned about how you related to the Iliad as a text rather than whether the Greek siege of Troy was a just war.

People have been quoting some pretty damning statements from the koran.  You’ve been saying that they’re not looking at it in the proper context.  Well, people are always going to pick and choose context to justify their arguments.  I recognize that the contents of books like the koran provide fascinating and essential insights into the collective psyches, and those insights are enriched by understanding both the context in which they were written and the contexts in which they may be interpreted.  But, I’m less concerned about the contents of the individual texts than I am that large segments of the human population believe that these cultural artifacts, in some ways little more than elaborate Rorschach tests, can dictate unequivocally how we must relate each other.

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Posted: 21 March 2011 04:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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ExMachina - 21 March 2011 02:38 AM

Affluenza my problem with religions in general aren’t that I think they’ll all commit violent act, but that religions create a separation within society. All us, non-believers apparently defy and hate the very God we don’t believe in. If you can figure that one out, I’d really like to hear it.

It’s not possible to hate something we don’t believe in, but it’s hard not to react strongly to being condemned for not believing.

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Posted: 21 March 2011 06:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Jeciron - 21 March 2011 04:07 AM
ExMachina - 21 March 2011 02:38 AM

Affluenza my problem with religions in general aren’t that I think they’ll all commit violent act, but that religions create a separation within society. All us, non-believers apparently defy and hate the very God we don’t believe in. If you can figure that one out, I’d really like to hear it.

It’s not possible to hate something we don’t believe in, but it’s hard not to react strongly to being condemned for not believing.

Whynot: Just as an aside, and being no expert on Muslim doctrine, I just wonder if Islam has a spiritual bad guy analogous to the christians, Satan? Christians appear to have a non-human excuse to blame when things are not going well for them religiously, whereas…unless I’m mistaken…the Muslims appear to blame everything on infidels or their own lack of obedience. But I don’t know this for sure, which is why I’m asking. Does Islam have an equivalent to Satan in their scriptures, or is it the case anyone whom they label an infidel is the equivalent?

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Posted: 21 March 2011 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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Jeciron - 21 March 2011 04:00 AM

Of course context is important. 

Part of viewing theistic religious books like the bible and the koran in context is understanding that they are no more reality based then any other bronze age mythology, and they are so self contradictory and incoherent that no one, no matter how much one quotes these texts, in whatever specified context, can prove their interpretation of these texts in a way that is unchallengeable .  I value mythology and fantasy because of what they illustrate about how human beings think and function.  But when I read the Iliad I don’t read it to find out how I must properly worship the mythological bronze age gods, or to make a claim that the “Iliad” is the reason modern Greeks are violent or peaceful.  If you quoted a section of the text to me and told me it proved that if I didn’t burn entrails properly the gods would look on me with disfavor and I’d be chained to a rock and have my liver torn out daily, and, by the way, if I disagreed you had an obligation to kill me, I’d be a whole lot more concerned about how you related to the Iliad as a text rather than whether the Greek siege of Troy was a just war.

People have been quoting some pretty damning statements from the koran.  You’ve been saying that they’re not looking at it in the proper context.  Well, people are always going to pick and choose context to justify their arguments.  I recognize that the contents of books like the koran provide fascinating and essential insights into the collective psyches, and those insights are enriched by understanding both the context in which they were written and the contexts in which they may be interpreted.  But, I’m less concerned about the contents of the individual texts than I am that large segments of the human population believe that these cultural artifacts, in some ways little more than elaborate Rorschach tests, can dictate unequivocally how we must relate each other.

Fair enough…

whynot - 21 March 2011 06:05 AM
Jeciron - 21 March 2011 04:07 AM
ExMachina - 21 March 2011 02:38 AM

Affluenza my problem with religions in general aren’t that I think they’ll all commit violent act, but that religions create a separation within society. All us, non-believers apparently defy and hate the very God we don’t believe in. If you can figure that one out, I’d really like to hear it.

It’s not possible to hate something we don’t believe in, but it’s hard not to react strongly to being condemned for not believing.

Whynot: Just as an aside, and being no expert on Muslim doctrine, I just wonder if Islam has a spiritual bad guy analogous to the christians, Satan? Christians appear to have a non-human excuse to blame when things are not going well for them religiously, whereas…unless I’m mistaken…the Muslims appear to blame everything on infidels or their own lack of obedience. But I don’t know this for sure, which is why I’m asking. Does Islam have an equivalent to Satan in their scriptures, or is it the case anyone whom they label an infidel is the equivalent?

There is satan in the quran and he is exactly the same satan of christianity…the story is pretty similar too i.e Satan lured Adam and Eve to eat from the forbidden tree. Satan rebelled against god etc…and that god has allowed satan to roam and try to convert others away from the path of god.

Basically from the stand point of islam…the following is how they view and are taught about the other 2 Abrahamic religions (Judaism and Christianity)...

Islam is a continuation of Judaism and Christianity…they believe that Jews and Christians have concealed and distorted books (Torah and Gospel) given to them by god to Moses and Jesus…

How come they (come) unto thee (Muhammad) for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? ... Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light ... And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

And unto thee (Muslims) have We revealed the Scripture (the Qur’an) with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (5:43-48, MP)

Essentially they believe that Jews and Christians have altered/corrupted the teachings to the point that it includes innovations in belief (Trinity, Jesus being God, Paulian theology, Promised land for Jews)...

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Posted: 21 March 2011 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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ExMachina - 21 March 2011 02:38 AM

Affluenza my problem with religions in general aren’t that I think they’ll all commit violent act, but that religions create a separation within society. All us, non-believers apparently defy and hate the very God we don’t believe in. If you can figure that one out, I’d really like to hear it.

They all do commit violent acts or at least enable it, generally behind closed doors and then try to justify them.  I think the most common violent act they commit/enable is sexual abuse against children.

[ Edited: 21 March 2011 11:13 AM by Mriana ]
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Posted: 21 March 2011 12:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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“All myths constructed by a primitive people are symbols, and if we can discover what it is that they symbolize we have a valuable clue to the spiritual character, and sometimes even the history, of the people from whom they sprang.”  T. W. Rolleston “Celtic Myths and Legends footnote Pg. 128 Dover Publications

Satan and hell are possibly derived from Zoroastrianism influences brought back to Jerusalem by the returning elites sent home from the Babylonian. (If I remember my college History of Religion course correctly.)  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 21 March 2011 03:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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Affluenza - 21 March 2011 07:10 AM

Essentially they believe that Jews and Christians have altered/corrupted the teachings to the point that it includes innovations in belief (Trinity, Jesus being God, Paulian theology, Promised land for Jews)...

Probably true. From what I remember, Islam’s claim is that the Koran hasn’t been altered. Has anyone actually verified that btw?

Still one wonders how Christian and Jews end up being bedded down together against Islam. Christian and Jewish belief have very little commonality. Perhaps because Christianity tied their “Word of God” to the Tanakh.

There is no written Word of God, Just a few people who believe their minds were divinely possessed and could speak for God.

I don’t know that it matters whether the words of Moses, Mohammad or Jesus were altered. Not unless one really believes they spoke for God.

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Posted: 21 March 2011 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Gnostikosis - 21 March 2011 03:28 PM
Affluenza - 21 March 2011 07:10 AM

Essentially they believe that Jews and Christians have altered/corrupted the teachings to the point that it includes innovations in belief (Trinity, Jesus being God, Paulian theology, Promised land for Jews)...

Probably true. From what I remember, Islam’s claim is that the Koran hasn’t been altered. Has anyone actually verified that btw?

Still one wonders how Christian and Jews end up being bedded down together against Islam. Christian and Jewish belief have very little commonality. Perhaps because Christianity tied their “Word of God” to the Tanakh.

There is no written Word of God, Just a few people who believe their minds were divinely possessed and could speak for God.

I don’t know that it matters whether the words of Moses, Mohammad or Jesus were altered. Not unless one really believes they spoke for God.

There are various copies of the quran in many museums around the world all dated around 1000 years ago…

Apparently the oldest copy is in Tashkent Uzbekistan dated in the year 651…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4581684.stm

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