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Is Libya no-fly zone an example of a “Just War?”
Posted: 25 August 2011 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 121 ]
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I hope you guys are right.

And no, its not about me “choosing the timing” for an actual change in Lybia. Its a simple observation on the chances of any real and meaningful change actually happening.

But yes, .1% is still enough to hope for.

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Posted: 25 August 2011 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 122 ]
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Points well taken, everyone.

The Libyans are literate.  smile  They can read the World Wide Web!  They live at the edge of the Saharan desert without access to the rich and fertile Nile Delta in Egypt, on the shore of the Mediterranian Sea, they import most of their food, they export oil.  Those SOBs live longer than we do!  How’d they do that??  smile

[ Edited: 25 August 2011 01:38 PM by jump_in_the_pit ]
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Posted: 25 August 2011 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]
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The problem with reviewing this idea of change in the “Arab world”, is that we don’t live there.  If modern, liberal,democracy is going to be set in place in Libya, it seems that MAJOR overhaul will have to happen.  Basically their culture will have to be wiped out and replaced with ours;  that seems unlikely.

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Posted: 26 August 2011 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]
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In USA history, the founding fathers didn’t want the commoners to vote they just wanted them to put their lives on the line during the Revolutionary War.  The founding fathers wanted the aristocracy to vote.  Why the disagreement between the aristocracy and the commoners, what could have caused that division?

Maybe the aristocracy had educated ideas of the Enlightenment, about liberty, separation of church and state, science, mathematics, business and profit, land ownership, a free public education, law and justice, innocence until guilt is proven, treason is a harsh word that deserves limits, etc.  Ideas that the commoners didn’t have much access to, and so the commoners just had the common ideas in their heads, not the uncommon ideas of the Enlightenment?

I say let the Enlightened write the Libyan Constitution, and let the commoners catch up later once they have their free public education.  That was the USA solution to the disagreement between the Enlightened and the commoners.

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Posted: 26 August 2011 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]
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jump_in_the_pit - 26 August 2011 08:58 AM

In USA history, the founding fathers didn’t want the commoners to vote they just wanted them to put their lives on the line during the Revolutionary War.  The founding fathers wanted the aristocracy to vote.  Why the disagreement between the aristocracy and the commoners, what could have caused that division?

Maybe the aristocracy had educated ideas of the Enlightenment, about liberty, separation of church and state, science, mathematics, business and profit, land ownership, a free public education, law and justice, innocence until guilt is proven, treason is a harsh word that deserves limits, etc.  Ideas that the commoners didn’t have much access to, and so the commoners just had the common ideas in their heads, not the uncommon ideas of the Enlightenment? ...

That is a very interesting topic. Perhaps the basic principles of “democracy” should be revised. Perhaps only highly educated political scientists should decide what to do, like engineers controlling technological development, doctors controlling medical situations, etc. Just food for thought.
.

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Posted: 29 August 2011 09:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]
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downer Just so awful.  Not even a hurricane can be as cruel towards people, as a violent cruel person can be.

“She took me to a bathroom and tied my hands behind my back, and tied my feet,” the 30-year-old Mullah told CNN, before describing having been scalded after she refused to beat Hannibal’s young son when he wouldn’t stop crying. “She tied my mouth…and she started pouring the boiling water on my head like this.”

Gaddafi Family Nanny Describes Physical Abuse At Son’s Seaside Condo (GRAPHIC VIDEO)

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Posted: 30 August 2011 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]
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That poor woman. What’s to keep another brutal dictator from growing there over the next decade?

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Posted: 30 August 2011 08:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]
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Then it should be easy for you to refute my observations. If you had a leg to stand on you would be pouncing all over my arguments. But you don’t because you can’t.

Nope. They’ll make a stab at democracy, but eventually a new strongman will emerge. They just don’t have the deep cultural roots for democracy. They can develop them, but it will take a while. At best, a few generations.

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Posted: 30 August 2011 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 129 ]
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Chris Crawford - 30 August 2011 08:54 AM

They just don’t have the deep cultural roots for democracy.

Maybe. Could be genetic…

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Posted: 30 August 2011 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 130 ]
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George - 30 August 2011 09:02 AM
Chris Crawford - 30 August 2011 08:54 AM

They just don’t have the deep cultural roots for democracy.

Maybe. Could be genetic…

There is no evidence that such things are genetically transmitted. But “few generations” makes sense to me.
.

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Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia), a retired nuclear physicist from New Jersey, USA. A am also the author of a FREE ONLINE book: “Diary of a Former Communist: Thoughts, Feelings, Reality.”

http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html

It is an autobiography based on a diary kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA).

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Posted: 30 August 2011 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 131 ]
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Ludwik Kowalski - 30 August 2011 10:39 AM
George - 30 August 2011 09:02 AM
Chris Crawford - 30 August 2011 08:54 AM

They just don’t have the deep cultural roots for democracy.

Maybe. Could be genetic…

There is no evidence that such things are genetically transmitted. But “few generations” makes sense to me.
.

What things? Family inbreeding, for example, plays a big role in the way Middle East countries are structured. Men in the Middle East are more interested to protect their large families than to join the police or the army to serve their countries. Same thing happened in Sicily, which is the reason why there is the Mafia. Biology has a lot to do with it.

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Posted: 30 August 2011 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 132 ]
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BTW, a “few generations” does make sense. If benevolent nature will finally start to pay off (in the Darwinian way) in the Middle East, they might one day end up having a society very similar to that of the West.

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Posted: 30 August 2011 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 133 ]
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George - 30 August 2011 10:59 AM
Ludwik Kowalski - 30 August 2011 10:39 AM
George - 30 August 2011 09:02 AM
Chris Crawford - 30 August 2011 08:54 AM

They just don’t have the deep cultural roots for democracy.

Maybe. Could be genetic…

There is no evidence that such things are genetically transmitted. But “few generations” makes sense to me.
.

What things? Family inbreeding, for example, plays a big role in the way Middle East countries are structured. Men in the Middle East are more interested to protect their large families than to join the police or the army to serve their countries. Same thing happened in Sicily, which is the reason why there is the Mafia. Biology has a lot to do with it.

I hear you, but “Mafias” exist in just about every society.

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Posted: 20 October 2011 08:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 134 ]
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Muammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Gaddaf (June 7, 1942 - October 20, 2011)

Hey, it looks like the King is dead!  gulp  Long live the King, I guess!  :shrug:

Now comes the hard part, Nation Building.  Try to Unite the warring factions at the peace table.  I know you’re skeptics, but cross your fingers anyway.

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Posted: 22 October 2011 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 135 ]
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Now comes the hard part, Nation Building.  Try to Unite the warring factions at the peace table.  I know you’re skeptics, but cross your fingers anyway.

The thing which makes me a little cautious…okay…VERY cautious, is that revolutions tend to become a reflection/repeat performance of whatever it is it seeks to depose. The only difference being who the executioners are and who’s being executed.

Cynical?

You bet, but in the context of historical reality, I think I have good reason to be.

I would hope that the Libyans would be one of the refreshing exceptions, but I’ll believe that when I see it work out that way.

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