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Have you been OB?  Or have info on my OBE…
Posted: 30 April 2011 01:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 30 April 2011 12:49 AM

Had a few OBE’s myself, during times of serious illness, wherein I “went” to a beautiful and mysterious “place” and “met” some strange and misty, let’s call them for want of a better description “entities”, who told me certain things that didn’t register consciously, but later, after I recovered, it seemed like I just KNEW the answers to certain questions…..

“New Agers” will rave breathlessly about meeting Spirit Guides, Skeptics (so-called) will talk about oxygen deprivation and random firing of neurons; me, I prefer to reserve judgement until new data comes along. These experiences “happened” to me,and no-one can “prove” they didn’t, but leaping to premature conclusions - and then, perhaps, defending those conclusions against all odds despite new evidence - isn’t terribly helpful.

And, no, I’m not epileptic, and what I had weren’t mini strokes.

Ogmonkey, your experiences sound extremely interesting, and I’d like to hear more. We’re not all debunkers here.

(I’ve had a couple of UFO experiences too; one glowing green Daylight Disc, and an apparent meteor that CHANGED DIRECTION.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Thank you.  Now was that so hard to say?  I doubt it.  For some here, I guess.

When I was around 5yrs old I used to have very lucid dreams where I was working under ground as a miner.  I didn’t even know what that kind of job was at that age.  I remember red/orange lights strange rocks with spikes on a conveyor belt and I was an adult with darker skin(not african american I think).  I was some sort of slave and after the first time I woke up I was instantly sick as hell with fever,puke, shakes and all.  This dream actually made me sick I think.  I had it under ten times in total and every time after the first one I was scared to actually wake up.  I would rather work next to 15 or so people and slave in my dream than wake up.  I always got sick after this dream and had no symptoms before bed either.  It was real as me sitting here typing choosing to not sleep at the moment and vent.

I just told my sister this yesterday and she said she had dreams that she had a wife and kid and was running from white men(Germans) and she was a Jewish male she thinks.  They jumped in some river or water and she felt bullets darting past her like they were shooting at here.  She actually now questions if she had a past life.  She is a total skeptic and a successful person in society. 

I agree with people that my mind might do stuff now and again MAYBE but how would I know what the hell an under ground mine with a conveyor belt and rocks as an adult and be scared to wake in fear of being sick.  Normally kids are scared to sleep.  I was terrified to wake.  Thanks for sharing.  Maybe some other people will open up a bit.  Really unless someone has experienced something they can’t EVER come to a clear conclusion.  And that is why most skeptics are skeptic.  If someone here has never experienced suck things then i wish you could at least once.  Then you have something to strike with.  I have not yet begun to learn about the way the mind works so i only know what i know.  As soon as I have studied(read,talk to others) I will have a HUGE advantage over the skeptic that is…..  I will know it from both angles.  That is something some wish they knew or have felt. Damn I can talk zipper

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Posted: 30 April 2011 02:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 30 April 2011 01:55 AM

These experiences “happened” to me,and no-one can “prove” they didn’t, but leaping to premature conclusions - and then, perhaps, defending those conclusions against all odds despite new evidence - isn’t terribly helpful.

We’re not leaping to conclusions on this. Most of us here are dismissive of this sort of thing precisely because a close examination of all the available facts and the evidence do NOT support the conclusion you’re trying to argue for.

As to debunking, if you think that’s what rational skepticism is about, then you’re misunderstanding what it’s all about. You might want to keep in mind however that if what you’re trying to champion was even real and verifiably so, it would survive and even thrive in the face of every possible test.

We know you didn’t leap anywhere.  I know you are there and didn’t even move.  Your mind is set unlike mine. I’m open to being wrong and right anytime.  What do you think?  That I’m some idiot bible thumper?  I say piss on that book. 

And you are debunking what????  Because you read a book or heard from another….. you have to be right?  Those books PROVE your reasoning? Maybe you are the mislead individuals.  You know nothing but what you have been fed.  You’re no better than those jokes on TV “praise the lord” help me jesus…. ” My book is right and if you are against it then to hell with you”...ahaha Hit the nail on the head with you.  Step back and ask how you know what you know and I will continue to call you confused.  I look forward to more laughs.  I’d rather believe my own eyes that some book as you do.  You have no evidence.  Just talk..  Unless some higher power is where you get your info from then you know nothing just as you claim WE do.

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Posted: 30 April 2011 03:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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OGMONKEY - 29 April 2011 10:40 AM

I would love to see you all on the street(promise not a threat) so that I would shock you all like I do to most.  It’s been said never judge a book by it’s cover but I say just don’t judge me unless you are ready for the same. 

What do you mean by that? Shocked by what? Ready for what? Claiming privileged access to some reality must also be investigated so it can be possibly be discovered if what you experience is more than a process in your brain. As I said in my previous posting, we should avoid both extremes when we really want to know what is going on: the extreme of denying the experience, but also to take your interpretation as the only correct one, just because it was you who had the experience.

OGMONKEY - 29 April 2011 10:40 AM

I’m on a higher level than most here, looking down on YOU now.  Me with my supposed disorder, am finding some here not even worth talking to.  I took time to write what I “experienced.”  Only to erase it because you all(some) don’t deserve the privilege to even hear such things.  I wont give up on some of you that easy.  Just hear me out when I ask for help and input and maybe some might relate.  Save the comments that might bother a person please. Take time to analyze my stories.  You might get something out of it.  If you’re not willing to listen and allow me to share then your little fellow to me…

Don’t put yourself on a higher level, please. If you really want to share your experiences, then you must be open to reinterpretations that might not fit to how you are attached to them. You have the right not to be offended, that was the reason of my previous posting. Your experiences must be taken serious, as how they influence your life.

But you cannot give your experience on a forum of the Center for Inquiry if you do not agree that your interpretations are challenged. Nobody here waits for a ‘messenger of the truth’.

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Posted: 30 April 2011 03:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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OGMONKEY - 30 April 2011 02:58 AM

And you are debunking what????  Because you read a book or heard from another….. you have to be right?  Those books PROVE your reasoning? Maybe you are the mislead individuals.  You know nothing but what you have been fed.  You’re no better than those jokes on TV “praise the lord” help me jesus…. ” My book is right and if you are against it then to hell with you”...ahaha Hit the nail on the head with you.  Step back and ask how you know what you know and I will continue to call you confused.  I look forward to more laughs.  I’d rather believe my own eyes that some book as you do.  You have no evidence.  Just talk..  Unless some higher power is where you get your info from then you know nothing just as you claim WE do.

Now, now! These insults are uncalled for. You have presented claims, but no proof. You expect us to accept your claims whole cloth without question?? We are skeptics! We ask questions! Yet, when we question you, you become insulted and start in with personal attacks. cool smirk

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Posted: 30 April 2011 03:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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OGMONKEY - 30 April 2011 02:58 AM

We know you didn’t leap anywhere.  I know you are there and didn’t even move.  Your mind is set unlike mine. I’m open to being wrong and right anytime.  What do you think?  That I’m some idiot bible thumper?  I say piss on that book. 

And you are debunking what????  Because you read a book or heard from another….. you have to be right?  Those books PROVE your reasoning? Maybe you are the mislead individuals.  You know nothing but what you have been fed.  You’re no better than those jokes on TV “praise the lord” help me jesus…. ” My book is right and if you are against it then to hell with you”...ahaha Hit the nail on the head with you.  Step back and ask how you know what you know and I will continue to call you confused.  I look forward to more laughs.  I’d rather believe my own eyes that some book as you do.  You have no evidence.  Just talk..  Unless some higher power is where you get your info from then you know nothing just as you claim WE do.

Please, OGMONKEY, calm down your tone. Otherwise it makes no sense to write anything here, you just get irritated. If you seek for people who uncritically accept your interpretations, then you surely are not in the right place here. I am sorry that some posters here are a bit harsh to you, and it is better for all here not to stick to his own truths from the beginning: but that is you included.

The books I recommended are written by authors who had OBEs themselves, and they take another stand than you. So e.g. for the critique of the kind of Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon above, it would be just two different kinds third party reports. How should we choose whose interpretation is the correct one?

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Posted: 30 April 2011 05:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Like religious experiences, the problem with OB is that it is a strictly subjective thing and cannot be shared by others. How then do you propose to prove it to our satisfaction? Impossible.

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Posted: 30 April 2011 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Pambania - 30 April 2011 05:22 AM

Like religious experiences, the problem with OB is that it is a strictly subjective thing and cannot be shared by others. How then do you propose to prove it to our satisfaction? Impossible.

Not necessarily. If somebody can see things that he could not have known from the place where his/her body still lies, then it is at least a kind of prove. But to make such an observation scientifically, one must make sure that this is the case. Just a report of somebody does not suffice of course. And not having a full check that there really is no other way of knowing the fact (looked before, being told by somebody else etc) is not enough either. As the ‘bon mot’ goes: extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

And from another side: we all dream, and these dreams are subjective too. But at least we all agree on it that they exist. So I am convinced that OBEs exist. But I am much less convinced that something really is leaving the body, even if I know people are convinced that their experiences were more real than daily reality. This feeling is something to be explained, not neglected. Happily enough there are now a few neurologists really investigating OBEs.

To add: having an OBE does not mean somebody is mentally ill or instable.

[ Edited: 30 April 2011 10:18 AM by GdB ]
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Posted: 30 April 2011 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 30 April 2011 01:55 AM

We’re not leaping to conclusions on this. Most of us here are dismissive of this sort of thing precisely because a close examination of all the available facts and the evidence do NOT support the conclusion you’re trying to argue for.

As to debunking, if you think that’s what rational skepticism is about, then you’re misunderstanding what it’s all about. You might want to keep in mind however that if what you’re trying to champion was even real and verifiably so, it would survive and even thrive in the face of every possible test.

Many of you here are dismissive because (a), these experiences haven’t happened to you; or (b) they have happened but you’ve “explained” them away in the manner you’ve been conditioned to use. The “facts and evidence” are purely subjective and, as such, not amenable to either verification or disproof. And I’m not trying to “argue for” or “champion” any conclusion; I’m simply reporting my own experiences and predicting how certain people will interpret them, with their own conditioned responses. I was right,wasn’t I?

And I know what rational skepticism is about; much more so than many on this forum, I think, whose first impulse is ALWAYS to debunk, it seems.
Naming no names, but you know who you are.

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 30 April 2011 06:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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We know you didn’t leap anywhere.  I know you are there and didn’t even move.  Your mind is set unlike mine. I’m open to being wrong and right anytime.

From the overall tone of that post, I would have to say that this claim of yours is completely untrue.

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Posted: 30 April 2011 10:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 30 April 2011 02:15 PM
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 30 April 2011 01:55 AM

We’re not leaping to conclusions on this. Most of us here are dismissive of this sort of thing precisely because a close examination of all the available facts and the evidence do NOT support the conclusion you’re trying to argue for.

As to debunking, if you think that’s what rational skepticism is about, then you’re misunderstanding what it’s all about. You might want to keep in mind however that if what you’re trying to champion was even real and verifiably so, it would survive and even thrive in the face of every possible test.

Many of you here are dismissive because (a), these experiences haven’t happened to you; or (b) they have happened but you’ve “explained” them away in the manner you’ve been conditioned to use. The “facts and evidence” are purely subjective and, as such, not amenable to either verification or disproof. And I’m not trying to “argue for” or “champion” any conclusion; I’m simply reporting my own experiences and predicting how certain people will interpret them, with their own conditioned responses. I was right,wasn’t I?

And I know what rational skepticism is about; much more so than many on this forum, I think, whose first impulse is ALWAYS to debunk, it seems.
Naming no names, but you know who you are.

Theflyingsorcerer.

No, not debunk, but ask for compelling evidence. Those professing the extraordinary claim, must therefore present the extraordinary evidence…

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Posted: 30 April 2011 11:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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asanta - 30 April 2011 10:06 PM

No, not debunk, but ask for compelling evidence. Those professing the extraordinary claim, must therefore present the extraordinary evidence…

That’s exactly what I mean. “Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence” - a conditioned response, if ever I heard one. Wasn’t it Carl Sagan who said it first? - and self-elected “skeptics” have been parroting it ever since.

So what, exactly, is an “extraordinary” claim? Surely there’s a great deal of subjectivity involved. If, for example, someone has been having OBE’s regularly all their life (as some shamans are reputed to have), then for that person, and for his/her associates, OBE’s are completely ordinary, and an American or European University educated “skeptic” who came along saying they don’t exist, would be the one having to produce the “extraordinary” evidence.

Similarly, to anyone who has experienced repeated “alien abductions” since childhood - and there are plenty around, just check the relevant literature - these experiences are, again, perfectly ordinary, and again it’s up to the so-called “skeptic” to present the “extraordinary” evidence. “What do you mean aliens don’t exist? Of course they exist, I’ve been meeting them two or three times a year since I was five!”

What is “extraordinary” and what is “ordinary”, to you, depends very much on your personal environment, your “frame of reference” if you like.

Thflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 01 May 2011 06:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 30 April 2011 11:51 PM

So what, exactly, is an “extraordinary” claim?

A claim that has as a consequence that the fundamentals of established science must be rewritten.
Established science is science on which a hell of a lot technology is based that is also used by you, and that would not work if these fundamentals were not true.

If a lot of persons have special experiences like OBEs (or one person a lot of these experiences) then it demands for an explanation. But that somebody trust-worthily reports that he has OBEs, does not necessarily mean that he really was out of the body. Only that it really feels like it.

[ Edited: 01 May 2011 06:14 AM by GdB ]
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Posted: 01 May 2011 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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But you cannot give your experience on a forum of the Center for Inquiry if you do not agree that your interpretations are challenged. Nobody here waits for a ‘messenger of the truth’.

Challenged or Judged?

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Posted: 01 May 2011 05:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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I have said that I don’t think it’s leaving the body.  I think it is something else.  I don’t buy the whole sole thing either.  I just believe that we are capable of more than given credit for.  I think every person alive could tell some sort of story that might sound crazy AND have a witness also to back their claim.  “REMEMBER WHEN?” 

SO I don’t recall saying I exactly left my body.  I believe I see from other perspectives.  How???? I am red/green color blind.  Has anyone ever associated colorblindness with seeing odd things?

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Posted: 01 May 2011 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 30 April 2011 02:15 PM
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 30 April 2011 01:55 AM

We’re not leaping to conclusions on this. Most of us here are dismissive of this sort of thing precisely because a close examination of all the available facts and the evidence do NOT support the conclusion you’re trying to argue for.

As to debunking, if you think that’s what rational skepticism is about, then you’re misunderstanding what it’s all about. You might want to keep in mind however that if what you’re trying to champion was even real and verifiably so, it would survive and even thrive in the face of every possible test.

Many of you here are dismissive because (a), these experiences haven’t happened to you; or (b) they have happened but you’ve “explained” them away in the manner you’ve been conditioned to use. The “facts and evidence” are purely subjective and, as such, not amenable to either verification or disproof. And I’m not trying to “argue for” or “champion” any conclusion; I’m simply reporting my own experiences and predicting how certain people will interpret them, with their own conditioned responses. I was right,wasn’t I?

And I know what rational skepticism is about; much more so than many on this forum, I think, whose first impulse is ALWAYS to debunk, it seems.
Naming no names, but you know who you are.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Discussion is what I want.  Not someone that is stuck on their own conclusions trying to be the right one.  People need to step back sometimes.  Debunking can turn to a disorder like proven here lately.  “I’m right you’re wrong”  that’s what my book/“master(little m)” says and that’s that….  That’s how they sound

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