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Have you been OB?  Or have info on my OBE…
Posted: 01 May 2011 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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OGMONKEY - 01 May 2011 05:49 PM
Theflyingsorcerer - 30 April 2011 02:15 PM
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 30 April 2011 01:55 AM

We’re not leaping to conclusions on this. Most of us here are dismissive of this sort of thing precisely because a close examination of all the available facts and the evidence do NOT support the conclusion you’re trying to argue for.

As to debunking, if you think that’s what rational skepticism is about, then you’re misunderstanding what it’s all about. You might want to keep in mind however that if what you’re trying to champion was even real and verifiably so, it would survive and even thrive in the face of every possible test.

Many of you here are dismissive because (a), these experiences haven’t happened to you; or (b) they have happened but you’ve “explained” them away in the manner you’ve been conditioned to use. The “facts and evidence” are purely subjective and, as such, not amenable to either verification or disproof. And I’m not trying to “argue for” or “champion” any conclusion; I’m simply reporting my own experiences and predicting how certain people will interpret them, with their own conditioned responses. I was right,wasn’t I?

And I know what rational skepticism is about; much more so than many on this forum, I think, whose first impulse is ALWAYS to debunk, it seems.
Naming no names, but you know who you are.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Discussion is what I want.  Not someone that is stuck on their own conclusions trying to be the right one.  People need to step back sometimes.  Debunking can turn to a disorder like proven here lately.  “I’m right you’re wrong”  that’s what my book/“master(little m)” says and that’s that….  That’s how they sound

A group of people who have all had strange subjective experiences doesnt prove that “other realities exist”.Maybe they do,but skeptics are not going to believe something is real just because you had a dream about it.Accusing sceptics of being closed minded knuckleheads because they want proof is somewhat childish.

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Posted: 02 May 2011 01:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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OGMONKEY - 01 May 2011 05:25 PM

But you cannot give your experience on a forum of the Center for Inquiry if you do not agree that your interpretations are challenged. Nobody here waits for a ‘messenger of the truth’.

Challenged or Judged?

Challenged. Of course.

OGMONKEY - 01 May 2011 05:49 PM

Discussion is what I want.  Not someone that is stuck on their own conclusions trying to be the right one.  People need to step back sometimes.  Debunking can turn to a disorder like proven here lately.

Trying to debunk is ok. Assume that it is debunked from the beginning, or even deny that people have these experiences is wrong.

OGMONKEY - 01 May 2011 05:39 PM

SO I don’t recall saying I exactly left my body.  I believe I see from other perspectives

I thought I remember something from your deleted post, that you saw something behind the back of a friend. I interpreted it that way, because you call your experience as an OBE.

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Posted: 02 May 2011 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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GdB - 01 May 2011 06:11 AM
Theflyingsorcerer - 30 April 2011 11:51 PM

So what, exactly, is an “extraordinary” claim?

A claim that has as a consequence that the fundamentals of established science must be rewritten.
Established science is science on which a hell of a lot technology is based that is also used by you, and that would not work if these fundamentals were not true.

That shamans have OBE"s and people have what we can call MAAE’s or “Multiple Alien Abduction Experiences”, doesn’t require that “the fundamentals of established science must be rewritten” That is - if you’ll excuse me - as dumb as the writer(s) that M. Night Shyamalan employed to write the script of “Signs” for him. “The aliens are invading! That means all the science books are wrong!” Phooey!

OBE’s and MAAE’s have NOTHING - ZERO - ZILCH - to do with the fact that technology works. We all know and accept that it does, and that the science behind it is essentially sound. It is the field of psychology, perhaps, that needs to be extended to accommodate these phenomena - and not just to dismiss them as dreams or hallucinations. At a time when “reality” is suspected by many physicists to consist of eleven-dimensional vibrating strings (!), and others are postulating multiple, co-existing Universes in order to explain why “our” universe seems to have been “designed” to be so conducive to the evolution of intelligence (!!), then OBE’s and MAAE’s seem mere trifles by comparison.

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 02 May 2011 10:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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It is the field of psychology, perhaps, that needs to be extended to accommodate these phenomena - and not just to dismiss them as dreams or hallucinations.

A lot of scientific fields have tried to do exactly that. The explainations you seek were ultimately rejected in no small part to the biological sciences aquiring a better understanding of the brain and how it works.

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Posted: 03 May 2011 12:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 02 May 2011 04:11 PM

That shamans have OBE"s and people have what we can call MAAE’s or “Multiple Alien Abduction Experiences”, doesn’t require that “the fundamentals of established science must be rewritten” That is - if you’ll excuse me - as dumb as the writer(s) that M. Night Shyamalan employed to write the script of “Signs” for him. “The aliens are invading! That means all the science books are wrong!” Phooey!

OBE’s and MAAE’s have NOTHING - ZERO - ZILCH - to do with the fact that technology works. We all know and accept that it does, and that the science behind it is essentially sound. It is the field of psychology, perhaps, that needs to be extended to accommodate these phenomena - and not just to dismiss them as dreams or hallucinations. At a time when “reality” is suspected by many physicists to consist of eleven-dimensional vibrating strings (!), and others are postulating multiple, co-existing Universes in order to explain why “our” universe seems to have been “designed” to be so conducive to the evolution of intelligence (!!), then OBE’s and MAAE’s seem mere trifles by comparison.

Please calm down. Why do get some people so emotionally about these subjects?

If you would have read my postings more carefully, you would have seen that I warned for too fast interpretations:  to accept uncritically that something really left the body, or that people really are abducted by aliens; but also for calling these experiences ‘just illusions’.  The point is that these when these experiences really are what they seem for the OBEr or the abductee, then some form of substance or energy has sneaked through all scientific experiments and observations (and we have proof of conservation of mass/energy in so many processes, that science take conservation of mass/energy as means of interpretation of experiments and observations). That is not impossible, but it needs stronger support than such uncontrolled observed experiences.

Still, such experiences are very interesting for science. The fact that people can have such experiences, says something about how the brain produces a reality model and a self-model. A theory of the mind that cannot explain such experiences is just not ready yet.

Having such experiences does not mean OBErs or abductees are mentally ill. A migraine patient seeing auras is not mentally ill either. But when somebody cannot integrate these experiences in his life, it is a risk of getting mentally ill. Then one needs support, but thereby avoid the extremes. One should not go to somebody who says that OBEs or abductions are proof of the existence of the soul or of aliens. But one should not go to somebody who thinks they are just illusions, and therefore this person is mentally ill: but this seems to be the prevailing attitude by some here.

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Posted: 03 May 2011 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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[Quote from Curmudgeon]: A lot of scientific fields have tried to do exactly that [end quote]

They haven’t tried very hard. And they’ve only tried WITHIN the scientific-materialist paradigm which, when applied to the mind/brain problem, is looking more and more tattered as time goes by. Shamanic experiences, and abduction experiences are very, very real for those undergoing them, and no amount of pseudorationalisation can alter that fact. Anyone who hasn’t had the requisite experience is ipso facto not qualified to offer an opinion about it.

And as for “Integrating the experiences”, that is exactly what the shaman does. The shamanic experience is perfectly “normal” - perfectly “ordinary” in fact, within that particular frame of reference - a frame of reference that, incidentally, includes all of today’s science and technology.

Theflyingsorcerer.

[ Edited: 03 May 2011 12:29 AM by Theflyingsorcerer ]
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Posted: 03 May 2011 01:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 03 May 2011 12:16 AM

And as for “Integrating the experiences”, that is exactly what the shaman does. The shamanic experience is perfectly “normal” - perfectly “ordinary” in fact, within that particular frame of reference - a frame of reference that, incidentally, includes all of today’s science and technology.

A shaman’s frame of reference includes today’s science and technology? I can’t believe that. Please elaborate.

And again, I still think you do not understand me. With ‘integrating’ I mean that having such experiences is not a threat to your personal existence. But as your personal existence is highly dependent on your cultural upbringing, in our modern culture, with everything we know already thanks to science, it might be more difficult as you cannot put this knowledge aside lightly, and people around you will not be prepared to, on good grounds! In a culture where people believe in souls and in an afterlife this integrating might be much easier: if one gets these experiences spontaneously, it might even be the beginning of your career as shaman.

But still, having these experiences, can give you a deeper understanding of what you really are, being a mind produced by the brain. Most modern people are still naive dualists who just do not recognise this. Compare Dennett’s idea of the Cartesian Theatre: in modern science there are no metaphysical dualists anymore, i.e. people who think some mental substance exists. But asking for the exact moment of becoming conscious, or the exact place in the brain where we become conscious, reveals that we are still using dualist concepts. Also the confusing ideas about free will and determinism reveals that most people are still dualists, even if they say they are not. But having experiences like OBEs show that somehow the brain ‘decides’ what is real, and what we self are. This is a chance, something to be understood.

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Posted: 03 May 2011 10:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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They haven’t tried very hard.

Oh yes “they” have. This sort of research has been going on for as long as it’s been possible to analyze brain activity. More to the point, a lot of effort has been put out to try and confirm OBE’s or at the very least, understand how and why they happen.

The problem here is that you’re looking for the sensational at the expence of the mundane. We can’t help you with that.

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Posted: 03 May 2011 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Theflyingsorcerer - 03 May 2011 12:16 AM

They haven’t tried very hard. And they’ve only tried WITHIN the scientific-materialist paradigm which, when applied to the mind/brain problem, is looking more and more tattered as time goes by. Shamanic experiences, and abduction experiences are very, very real for those undergoing them, and no amount of pseudorationalisation can alter that fact. Anyone who hasn’t had the requisite experience is ipso facto not qualified to offer an opinion about it.

Theflyingsorcerer.

Anyone can make use of science to justify/rationalize their claims. Even a “Shaman”. However either the validation or the means to falsify the claims necessary for scientific justification are lacking.

One is free to believe as they wish regarding the truth of these experiences. However without scientific justification you can’t expect the claims to have much persuasion power.

You can’t get upset by people who require scientific justification of a claim. Science has shown itself to be very successful at determining what is true.

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Posted: 07 May 2011 12:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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GdB - 03 May 2011 12:07 AM
Theflyingsorcerer - 02 May 2011 04:11 PM

That shamans have OBE"s and people have what we can call MAAE’s or “Multiple Alien Abduction Experiences”, doesn’t require that “the fundamentals of established science must be rewritten” That is - if you’ll excuse me - as dumb as the writer(s) that M. Night Shyamalan employed to write the script of “Signs” for him. “The aliens are invading! That means all the science books are wrong!” Phooey!

OBE’s and MAAE’s have NOTHING - ZERO - ZILCH - to do with the fact that technology works. We all know and accept that it does, and that the science behind it is essentially sound. It is the field of psychology, perhaps, that needs to be extended to accommodate these phenomena - and not just to dismiss them as dreams or hallucinations. At a time when “reality” is suspected by many physicists to consist of eleven-dimensional vibrating strings (!), and others are postulating multiple, co-existing Universes in order to explain why “our” universe seems to have been “designed” to be so conducive to the evolution of intelligence (!!), then OBE’s and MAAE’s seem mere trifles by comparison.

Please calm down. Why do get some people so emotionally about these subjects?

Fascinating. A typical ploy of the debunker mentality. Accuse someone of saying something stupid, or of not understanding some very simple principle, then when they get exasperated and indignantly deny it, accuse them of getting emotional - with the further implication that, since they are obviously driven by emotion rather than reason, that nothing they say can be relied upon.

All I’m doing is suggesting possibilities. If thinking about them makes you uncomfortable, I apologise.

Theflyingsorcerer.

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Posted: 07 May 2011 10:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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All I’m doing is suggesting possibilities. If thinking about them makes you uncomfortable, I apologise.

Thinking sbout “possibilities” doesn’t make anyone uncomfortable. What we take issue with is your unwillingness to deal with the fact that the “possibilities” are not what you want them to be.

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