4 of 10
4
Osama Bin Laden 1957-2011 (Merged)
Posted: 03 May 2011 08:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7641
Joined  2008-04-11
George - 03 May 2011 08:33 PM

How to prevent creating another bin Laden? I dunno, accepting to pay $20 per gallon of gas and getting the hell out of the Middle East? Almost a Sophie’s choice, isn’t it?

Probably, but not only a Bin Laden, we don’t want any more Stalins, Pol Pots, Idi Amins, Hitlers, Ted Bundys etc, etc…but of course this is wishful thinking on my part…but we should be able to identify the monsters now and again before they do so much damage..

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 01:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1396
Joined  2010-04-22
George - 03 May 2011 08:33 PM

How to prevent creating another bin Laden? I dunno, accepting to pay $20 per gallon of gas and getting the hell out of the Middle East? Almost a Sophie’s choice, isn’t it?

Getting out of the middle east won’t happen. From what I can see, there were many different reasons behind Al Qaida, and oil was a small and probably not even an important one. Israel is much more important, specifically the problem of not being able to stop Israel from forcibly removing people from their homes, and at times in the past, coming close to commiting genocide. And also, I think that simple globalization played it’s part, the clash of cultures. Much of the propoganda of groups like that are directed toward maintaining a kind of Islamic purity, which really is a direct reference to resistance to globalization.

 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 03:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  345
Joined  2006-11-27

I try to live by the tenet that violence is an unacceptable solution.  It isn’t that I have any certainty that in some possible scenario I wouldn’t use violence, how could I know that?.  But I try to make choices that are effective and reasoned and don’t require resorting to physical force.  Since I’ve taken this position I have been asked, more than once, “If you found yourself in Nazi Germany, knowing what you know now, and given the opportunity, wouldn’t you kill Hitler?”.  While I believe and would like to respond that the question is nonsensical and the scenario impossible, I know what I’m being asked and responding to the sense of the question find I must reply, “I don’t know, but I might.”  But, that question assumes that Hitler created Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is true.  Hitler was a product of his circumstances.  A much more viable question would be, “What circumstances created a German society which embraced and elevated a personality such as Hitler.

When you ask that question about modern a figure who is considered “evil” people get offended. I suppose it implies complicity, a subtext interpreted as ” What are you doing about it?” The response is often to the effect of “You can’t blame me/society for such a monster!”.  Well, who do we blame?  God?.  And really what I’m asking when I ask that question is “What went wrong”. 

OBL was a very dangerous person.  His death occurred in a context he enthusiastically participated in.  Because of that fact I’m having trouble forming an opinion about the morality of assassinating him.  I suppose there’s an emotional satisfaction in eliminating the “face of evil”, but does anyone one in this forum really think this is some kind of solution?

 Signature 

If we’re not laughing, they’re winning.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1396
Joined  2010-04-22
Jeciron - 04 May 2011 03:48 AM

OBL was a very dangerous person.  His death occurred in a context he enthusiastically participated in.  Because of that fact I’m having trouble forming an opinion about the morality of assassinating him.  I suppose there’s an emotional satisfaction in eliminating the “face of evil”, but does anyone one in this forum really think this is some kind of solution?

I do, for the reason you stated in your second sentence that I quote here. If you stick your hand in a hornet’s nest, expect to get stung.

 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 09:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4626
Joined  2007-10-05
Jeciron - 04 May 2011 03:48 AM

I try to live by the tenet that violence is an unacceptable solution.

That is an excellent way to live, until people start attacking you. Nonviolent protest only works against nonviolent opponents. This is not a theoretical situation. Osama bin Laden was the world’s most notorious terrorist. He orchestrated several acts of war against our country and vowed to do everything in his power to kill U.S. citizens. He did not care if he took out thousands of his fellow Muslims while killing infidels. The man was responsible for horrendous actions that killed thousands of people.

As I mentioned earlier, wars require different ethics than times of peace, and this was most certainly a wartime action. Our country did the right thing.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 02:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

That is an excellent way to live, until people start attacking you. Nonviolent protest only works against nonviolent opponents. This is not a theoretical situation. Osama bin Laden was the world’s most notorious terrorist. He orchestrated several acts of war against our country and vowed to do everything in his power to kill U.S. citizens. He did not care if he took out thousands of his fellow Muslims while killing infidels. The man was responsible for horrendous actions that killed thousands of people.

Bingo!!!!!

I’m a live and let live sort of person myself. If they don’t trouble me, I see no reason to trouble them.

However, I draw the line at evil.

Terrorists are a lot like the terminators of movie lore, only for real.
-They can’t be reasoned with,  (How the hell CAN you reason with anybody who thinks s/he’s getting orders from God?)
-they can’t be bargained with, (They don’t want to make a deal. They want to kill you.)
-they don’t feel remorse or pity,
-they don’t care about your pain.
-Appeasement NEVER works with people like this. (It only delays the inevitable.) AND,
-They absolutely will not stop until either you are dead or you kill them.

This is something I’ve noticed that a lot of armchair theoraticians and academics just don’t understand or grasp, but I can gaurantee you that the victims, and the police officers and soldiers who are tasked to deal with these people and pick up the pieces in the wake of the carnage they leave behind understand down to their bones.

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  345
Joined  2006-11-27

Well, to go with the hornet analogy:  If there is one yellowjacket in my room I can kill it, but if my problem is a nest of yellowjackets in my yard and when I smash the one in my room it releases pheromones that cause the whole colony to attack me, maybe I’d have been better off if I’d just shooed it out the window.  If I call in an exterminator and he destroys the nest and right away another colony forms, then, perhaps, I should look around and try to understand if there’s something in the environment that I can change to lessen the problem.  Naming the insect that stung you OBL and smashing the hell out of it might be emotionally satisfying but it’s by no means a complete solution.  I think that personifying the problem can make it harder to make the objective decisions that would actually help solve it.

I once worked for a farmer who, when his tractor broke down, called it every name in the book and beat it with a chain.  He trashed the paint and broke a light and, of course, it still wouldn’t start.  If he hadn’t personified the machine and vented his emotions on it he might have analyzed the problem, trouble shot the ignition and been a lot closer to getting his work done.  OBL was a horrible guy and did terrible things, and while he was certainly a symptom of a very serious problem, he was not the problem. The problem is not that religious fanatics are killing people, rather the problem is that people are choosing to become murderous religious fanatics. Our conflicts with a significant part of the Muslim/Arab/third world are not going to go away just because OBL is dead. 

I’m not sure that I consider myself “nonviolent”.  My philosophy is that I choose not to propose violence as a casual solution to a problem, or as a means to fulfill my desires.  That’s not the same as saying I won’t respond with violence if I’m subjected to it.  If’ we’d spent the money for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan on giving a huge number of young Muslims, especially women, a secular, scientific education do you think we’d be a lot worse off now, ten years later?  The Muslim world might have a burgeoning secular, stable, middle class, and we would have an education industry second to none here in the U.S.  I know that it’s ridiculous to even propose such an idea, but only because, for most of us, getting even is more important than finding solutions.

 Signature 

If we’re not laughing, they’re winning.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 06:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

Well, to go with the hornet analogy:  If there is one yellowjacket in my room I can kill it, but if my problem is a nest of yellowjackets in my yard and when I smash the one in my room it releases pheromones that cause the whole colony to attack me, maybe I’d have been better off if I’d just shooed it out the window.

There’s a big difference between yellow jackets and terrorists.

Yellow jackets are not actively plotting to kill you and just as actively seeking to do so.

Terrorists are, and NO amount of appeasement or trying to lay low will stop them.

That appeasement as a stratagy for dealing with pure evil is a failure in the long term is a lesson that Neville Chamberlain learned the hard way. At best, it buys you a little time but that’s it. The evil will still try to devour you so you don’t waste effort concerning yourself with their sensibilities. You proactively seek to remove the threat.

With terrorists, that means taking them out!

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2588
Joined  2011-04-24

The threat of terrorism will always exist,it always has before,Americans just didnt worry about it until it happened.Bin Ladin was a piece of shit and its good that he’s gone but others like him exist now and will exist in the future.There is nothing we can do to change that.

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7641
Joined  2008-04-11
DarronS - 04 May 2011 09:53 AM

As I mentioned earlier, wars require different ethics than times of peace, and this was most certainly a wartime action. Our country did the right thing.

As much as I abhor violence, just as you must destroy a rabid animal, Bin Laden had to be neutralized or destroyed to protect others. Our country did the right thing.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4626
Joined  2007-10-05

I’m afraid I agree with EOC on this one. I’ve been a pacifist all my life, but we have to face reality. These terrorists will not be appeased.

We also need to face the reality that the United States contributed to the climate that gave these terrorists the political clout they have. For decades our foreign policy propped up brutal dictators, including Saddam Hussein (thank you Ronald Reagan) and meddled in the internal affairs of people in the Middle East and South America. George W Bush had an historic opportunity to rally the world behind the United States against international terrorists, and he blew it. The War in Iraq will go down as one of the biggest blunders in history. Barack Obama is trying to clean up the mess Shrub left behind. Taking out Osama bin Laden is one step in cleaning up that mess.

 Signature 

“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 May 2011 07:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7641
Joined  2008-04-11
DarronS - 04 May 2011 07:31 PM

I’m afraid I agree with EOC on this one. I’ve been a pacifist all my life, but we have to face reality. These terrorists will not be appeased.

We also need to face the reality that the United States contributed to the climate that gave these terrorists the political clout they have. For decades our foreign policy propped up brutal dictators, including Saddam Hussein (thank you Ronald Reagan) and meddled in the internal affairs of people in the Middle East and South America. George W Bush had an historic opportunity to rally the world behind the United States against international terrorists, and he blew it. The War in Iraq will go down as one of the biggest blunders in history. Barack Obama is trying to clean up the mess Shrub left behind. Taking out Osama bin Laden is one step in cleaning up that mess.

I agree 100%, it is the rare exception where we take out a brutal dictator and make things better. Usually we take out the dictator, using our rose colored idealistic glasses, having no understanding of the political history and conventions of the culture, and end up making things worse…

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 May 2011 02:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7641
Joined  2008-04-11

I’m getting just a little bit annoyed by the media coverage here. ‘We’ have been actively searching for Bin Laden for 10 years now. It was not a secret. Now that he has been found and killed, there is talk that this was a violation of the Geneva Convention to kill him. Where has that concern been for the last 10 years?

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 May 2011 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1064
Joined  2007-06-20

What’s with the green and orange plastic toy squirt gun?  LOL  Those who have seen the graphic pictures of bin Laden’s now dead buddies know what I am talking about. 

Were bin Laden and these guys having a playful squirt gun fight when the SEALS burst in on them? 

Were they planning something where squirt guns could smuggle in some sort of fluid other than water? 

Who brings a squirt gun to a HK MP5 fight?  LOL

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 May 2011 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1064
Joined  2007-06-20
asanta - 05 May 2011 02:15 AM

Now that he has been found and killed, there is talk that this was a violation of the Geneva Convention to kill him. Where has that concern been for the last 10 years?

It’s never been a concern for me.  The Geneva Convention clearly does not apply to al-Qaeda.  Everyone who knows anything about it has said the same thing for the past 10 years.  If the media actually did its job, they’d know that too. 

And once again, I can’t believe I am saying this, but thanks President Obama!  I never thought he would have had it in him to make the decision and give the go ahead.  But I was wrong.

 Signature 

There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

Profile
 
 
   
4 of 10
4