Macgyver, you left off another trigger..“Science can’t explain it” or “X prescientific culture has been doing X for thousands of years”. If someone tells you that, run, do not walk far, far, away!

Thank you macgyver for the depth and so many surprising ideas, I thought.

So what is the real story here…

Is it that the ordinary able-bodied people are susceptible to the fearsome hype from the hoaxters, because of all the talk about pandemic disease and high infant mortality rates of the past, fearing that those dangers could return?

Is it that the ordinary able-bodied people are susceptible to the miraculous cure hype from the hoaxters, because of all the talk about miracle antibiotic cures of the past, hoping that this generation will see their miracle come from the science discoveries?

And maybe the able-bodied people can instead be grateful that today we live in the results of the miracle cures of the past, we have our miracle already in potable water, vaccination, a rich abundance of wonderful foods, convenient sanitation; so we don’t need to invite the hype about miracle cures into our homes.  And maybe we can take confidence that the science that succeeded in the past can do the research again and find cures for the new diseases of the future, doing hard work not performing a supernatural miracle; so we don’t need to invite the hype about dangerous disease and injury into our homes.  And the way to a more healthy society is through ordinary ideas like hand washing, enjoying games that exercise us, enjoying the abundant beautiful and wonderful variety of foods, maintaining the good sanitation and water supply systems, and visit the physician regularly?

Dr. Macgyver:

In the welcome thread I was recently welcomed by Traveler . Good to meet you here.

[I think Traveler was speaking to someone else when he added:

You might get some interesting discussion about ProArgi9 if you mention it in the Alt Med thread. 

. I asked: ProArgi9? Beneficial to your health?  Or not? How many truly qualified physicians have looked into this product and the claims made by company that produces it?

Me? Working in cooperation with THE HOLISTIC-AND-COMPLEMENTARY-MEDICINE APPROACH TO PHYSICAL, MENTAL AND SPIRITUAL HEALTH HAS ALWAYS BE AN INTEREST OF MINE

When I use the term holistic I like to include all well qualified and licensed practitioners of the healing arts—and willing to be reviewed by their peers—who, while taking care to avoid doing harm, are willing to work and be of loving service to all who come to them as patients needing physical, mental and spiritual help.

By the way, besides theology, I have a background in psychology (five years) and almost made it my career. In a study of the history of psychology I discovered that before psychology was called that, it was called pneumatology (in the 1500’s, CE)—the study of the spirit.
Interestingly, Dr. Wilhelm Wundt ( Billie Wound)—a brilliant medical student, acknowledged as the founder of modern clinical psychology (1879) was the son of Lutheran minister. Check out his life and times:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wilhelm-wundt/#LifTim
Based on a life-long interest in, and study of, psychology and encouraged by some medically-qualified friends of mine, I took some extensive studies and in depth programs in hypnotherapy which led to my getting a license in hypnotherapy, which I like to call pneumatherapy—a name I will comment on, later.  I have always consulted with medical friends in counselling with people who came to see me. For details about this, check out:  http://www.lindsayking.ca

I mentioned to Traveler: “An old friend of mine told me about ProArgi9, early in 2010, when I was 80. How about you? When did you hear of it—a fruit-like drink, which is designed to help keep our arteries clean? He kept after me until I agreed to start taking it. I started on Christmas Eve, 2011. The challenge is that I have been in relatively good health all my life. During the forty years I served as a minister—though I had days in which I did not feel on top of everything—I never had a day in which I was so ill that I had to cancel an appointment or absent myself from an event.

“So about ProArgi9: How much of it is HYPE? One wonders. I mentioned it to my family doctor, and others in the medial field. So far, no real interest or response.  I am glad to see that there is interest here.”

RevLGKing - 03 January 2012 10:53 PM

Dr. Macgyver:

In the welcome thread I was recently welcomed by Traveler . Good to meet you here.

[I think Traveler was speaking to someone else when he added:

You might get some interesting discussion about ProArgi9 if you mention it in the Alt Med thread. 

. I asked: ProArgi9? Beneficial to your health?  Or not? How many truly qualified physicians have looked into this product and the claims made by company that produces it?

Me? Working in cooperation with THE HOLISTIC-AND-COMPLEMENTARY-MEDICINE APPROACH TO PHYSICAL, MENTAL AND SPIRITUAL HEALTH HAS ALWAYS BE AN INTEREST OF MINE

When I use the term holistic I like to include all well qualified and licensed practitioners of the healing arts—and willing to be reviewed by their peers—who, while taking care to avoid doing harm, are willing to work and be of loving service to all who come to them as patients needing physical, mental and spiritual help.

By the way, besides theology, I have a background in psychology (five years) and almost made it my career. In a study of the history of psychology I discovered that before psychology was called that, it was called pneumatology (in the 1500’s, CE)—the study of the spirit.
Interestingly, Dr. Wilhelm Wundt ( Billie Wound)—a brilliant medical student, acknowledged as the founder of modern clinical psychology (1879) was the son of Lutheran minister. Check out his life and times:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wilhelm-wundt/#LifTim
Based on a life-long interest in, and study of, psychology and encouraged by some medically-qualified friends of mine, I took some extensive studies and in depth programs in hypnotherapy which led to my getting a license in hypnotherapy, which I like to call pneumatherapy—a name I will comment on, later.  I have always consulted with medical friends in counselling with people who came to see me. For details about this, check out:  http://www.lindsayking.ca

I mentioned to Traveler: “An old friend of mine told me about ProArgi9, early in 2010, when I was 80. How about you? When did you hear of it—a fruit-like drink, which is designed to help keep our arteries clean? He kept after me until I agreed to start taking it. I started on Christmas Eve, 2011. The challenge is that I have been in relatively good health all my life. During the forty years I served as a minister—though I had days in which I did not feel on top of everything—I never had a day in which I was so ill that I had to cancel an appointment or absent myself from an event.

“So about ProArgi9: How much of it is HYPE? One wonders. I mentioned it to my family doctor, and others in the medial field. So far, no real interest or response.  I am glad to see that there is interest here.”

It sounds like typical psuedoscience masqerading as medical treatment; there are quite a few websites about it - all claiming the same thing.  Nitric oxide is the ultimate thing about it, they say.

RevLGKing - 03 January 2012 10:53 PM

I think Traveler was speaking to someone else when he added:

You might get some interesting discussion about ProArgi9 if you mention it in the Alt Med thread. 

 

Nope, I was addressing you because I saw it recommended (and backed) by your website.

RevLGKing - 03 January 2012 10:53 PM

Dr. Macgyver:

“So about ProArgi9: How much of it is HYPE? One wonders. I mentioned it to my family doctor, and others in the medial field. So far, no real interest or response.  I am glad to see that there is interest here.”

Hello RevLGKing and welcome. Unfortunately this supplement as with most supplements has a lot of hype associated with it but no real science. Arginine is an amino acid ( see this Link) and while it is certainly an important building block for your body to produce the necessary proteins it is also extremely common and found in nearly all the foods you eat on a daily basis. In addition your body can make most if not all of what it needs. While there are limited medical uses for this amino acid in its purified form, there is no evidence that I have come across to show that taking arginine supplements would improve your health in any way.

A quick examination of the web sites selling this sCAM medicine will give you some easy clues. When a web site like THIS ONE has a tab for testimonials but cites no scientific studies that’s a big red flag. Testimonials are the tools of snake oil salesmen/women. Also when they make unlikely claims such as “It has amazing human performance and anti-aging properties, and has been validated by a Nobel Science prize in 1998.” you need to be very suspicious. I just did a search of the 1998 NOBEL PRIZES which were awarded and not surprisingly none of them mention L-arginine. I think what they are trying to do is piggyback onto the nobel prize given for Nitric Oxide who’s role in impotence lead to the development of viagra.  L-arginine is a precursor the body uses to make Nitric Oxide, but the prize was not awarded for anything to do with L-arginine and supplementing l-arginine is not an effective treatment for impotence. They are just trying to improve their image with a dishonest claim. That’s just one web site of course but when you search for this product you come across dozens of similar sleazy websites making similarly dubious claims.

The vast majority of supplements are of little or no value and some may actually be harmful. They nearly all suffer from the same lack of well designed controlled studies required to prove safety and efficacy. My approach to al of these products is if they don’t do the studies and don’t have the evidence they should be avoided since they are as likely or more likely to harm you as help you.

traveler - 04 January 2012 08:09 AM

RevLGKing - 03 January 2012 10:53 PM

I think Traveler was speaking to someone else when he added:

You might get some interesting discussion about ProArgi9 if you mention it in the Alt Med thread. 

Nope, I was addressing you because I saw it recommended (and backed) by your website.

Thanks for the correction. About Dr. Oz: Is he a fully qualified MD? From what medical school? Not a fan, I have seen his program no more than 3 times—once, he sprinkled some ProArgi9 on some food. Have the governments and medical school regulators no power to stop media personalities from “pretending” they are qualified MD’s, if they are not so qualified?

About THE FLF, check out The Family Life Foundation— http://www.flfcanada.com  a registered charity with no paid staff—PLEDGES not sell any product that fails to deliver what is advertised.

THIS IS POSTED ON OUR SITE:
Here is the pledge which the FLF makes to those who try the product as
described below, and-which I have been taking since December 24, 2010:  If
it does not give you the energy and other health qualities you seek to have,
the FLF will see to it that the company refunds every cent, including
handling—no questions asked.

The FLF is exploring ways and means of getting this kind of nutrition into
the hands of those who do not have the money.  BUT ONLY IF IT CAN BE DEMONSTRATED that it does deliver on its claims.
BTW, we have not had a lot of people interested in the product—maybe because I warn people to check out if is quackery, or not.
Me and ‘Argi9? I have to admit that my energy level seems to have improved. The placebo effect, perhaps? The only prescription I take is for middle-of-the-road high blood pressure.

I must ask Dr. Mckyver: Is one of the root causes of high blood pressure. Dirty arteries? Would it go down if they became clean, or cleaner?
===
(Sorry, I had to change the insert to green since blue is reserved for Administrator and Moderator official comments. - Occam)

Actually Dr. Oz is an MD but these days he seems to have forgotten his Hippocratic oath and is far more interested in self promotion. To answer your question, there does not seem to be anything legally that can be done about what he does. His defenders will just say its his right to offer a different point of view and the first amendment will back that up. The AMA is not restricted by the first amendment though and they could certainly come out and make a statement, but they won’t for several reasons. First, there are some MD’s who believe in woo or at least believe in their right to profit from it. Second, the AMA would anger a large portion of the public if they came out and attacked one of their darlings. Third, and I think most importantly any attack on Oz by the AMA would most certainly be seen as proof of the conspiracy theorists that big pharma/ big medicine is behind any attacks on sCAM medicine and Dr. Oz would become a martyr in their eyes which would only make matters worse.

As far as the root cause of hypertension (HTN), that is still up for debate to a large degree. I’m not sure what you mean by “dirty arteries”. There is no dirt in arteries. Perhaps you are referring to athersclerosis? That is the deposit of cholesterol and the development of plaque along artery walls. Athersclerosis can make artery walls less flexible and eventually can lead to systolic hypertension ( an elevation in the top number), but there is no evidence that this process can be reversed once it occurs or that doing so will lower the blood pressure. 

When atherosclerosis develops it occurs within every blood vessel in the body and is a complicated process that begins in our teen years. The plaques are not simple globs of cholesterol, but a complex structure made up of cholesterol, several different types of cells and proteins all imbedded deep in the surface of the arterial wall. There are many other things that probably contribute to the development of hypertension, and development is the operative word. There are most likely a series of changes that occur over time each leading to other changes that then result in hypertension. Some of these steps are most likely irreversible on some level. Hypertension is primarily a result of two things. Genetics and age. If you’re born with the right genes and you get to the right age you will get hypertension. Environmental factors do seem to play a role in preventing or at least delaying the onset of hypertension, but once you have hypertension the role they play is a minor one.

Luckily treatment for hypertension is very effective, relatively easy and inexpensive ( there are dozens of good generic drugs available). Keeping it under control is one of the most effective ways of extending your number and quality of years on this planet

macgyver - 04 January 2012 06:24 PM

Actually Dr. Oz is an MD but these days he seems to have forgotten his Hippocratic oath and is far more interested in self promotion. To answer your question, there does not seem to be anything legally that can be done about what he does. His defenders will just say its his right to offer a different point of view and the first amendment will back that up. The AMA is not restricted by the first amendment though and they could certainly come out and make a statement, but they won’t for several reasons. First, there are some MD’s who believe in woo or at least believe in their right to profit from it. Second, the AMA would anger a large portion of the public if they came out and attacked one of their darlings. Third, and I think most importantly any attack on Oz by the AMA would most certainly be seen as proof of the conspiracy theorists that big pharma/ big medicine is behind any attacks on sCAM medicine and Dr. Oz would become a martyr in their eyes which would only make matters worse.

As far as the root cause of hypertension (HTN), that is still up for debate to a large degree. I’m not sure what you mean by “dirty arteries”. There is no dirt in arteries. Perhaps you are referring to athersclerosis? That is the deposit of cholesterol and the development of plaque along artery walls. Athersclerosis can make artery walls less flexible and eventually can lead to systolic hypertension ( an elevation in the top number), but there is no evidence that this process can be reversed once it occurs or that doing so will lower the blood pressure. 

When atherosclerosis develops it occurs within every blood vessel in the body and is a complicated process that begins in our teen years. The plaques are not simple globs of cholesterol, but a complex structure made up of cholesterol, several different types of cells and proteins all imbedded deep in the surface of the arterial wall. There are many other things that probably contribute to the development of hypertension, and development is the operative word. There are most likely a series of changes that occur over time each leading to other changes that then result in hypertension. Some of these steps are most likely irreversible on some level. Hypertension is primarily a result of two things. Genetics and age. If you’re born with the right genes and you get to the right age you will get hypertension. Environmental factors do seem to play a role in preventing or at least delaying the onset of hypertension, but once you have hypertension the role they play is a minor one.

Luckily treatment for hypertension is very effective, relatively easy and inexpensive ( there are dozens of good generic drugs available). Keeping it under control is one of the most effective ways of extending your number and quality of years on this planet

Dr. Macgyver: It is a joy to read your interesting and to-the-point responses to my questions about HTN. Thanks for the good news: Luckily treatment for hypertension is very effective ... But may I ask:
Are there serious side effects caused by the treatments?
My family doctor, who prescribed HTN drugs for me, for the first time—not long ago—mentioned “swollen ankles” as one side effect.
But he made no mention whether or not this is an OK, or a serious, side effect.
What else should he have added to his comment?
Is HTN strictly a physical disease?
Or are there mental and spiritual components?

Dr. Mackyver, a word of warning to you: I was born asking questions.
Born January 14, 1930, all my life, I have been addicted to curiosity—a compulsive question asker—ever since. Please feel free to cut me off. If you are still in active practice. I want to take it easy on you? Are there other threads here to which you write? Is there a guide in this forum where I can follow what is going on?

ARE YOU A FAMILY PHYSICIAN?

Is it too much for the public to expect that doctors be like?
http://www.patchadams.org/Gesundheit_Institute_speakers
==========
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patch_Adams
As a minister (with education in and experience in pastoral psychology) I soon became aware that many family doctors and their families were not what we call “paragons” of health. For example, one family doctor we had—about my age (early 50’s at the time)—took his own life.  Another, with serious cancer, had to retire. Any attempt I made to discuss family, holistic and community health with them was met with silence.

ONE FAMILY MD I REMEMBER, FONDLY
I do remember, fondly, Dr. Ed M—a lover of skiing and mountain climbing. When his marriage went sour, he chose to go to Kamloops, British Columbia, Canada. That was years ago. While in North Toronto, he participated in a health-education programs put on by the Family Life Foundation—a volunteer-operated and registered charity   http://www.flfcanada.com  (founded in 1973)  which I helped start.

Dr. Ed.—despite being busy managing a practice—did agree to serve as a member of and a consultant to the Family Life Foundation. He made time to come to our board meetings and—time permitting—he came to group programs sponsored by the FLF. There, we set aside a block of time for people to ask questions about their health and the health of their families. It was an enjoyable time and learning experience for all involved.

Before then, or since then, the King family have not had a family doctor with whom we have really felt at ease chatting about the important issue of health. 

ONE FINAL QUESTION—perhaps a silly one:  How many other doctors like, DR. PATCH ADAMS, are there out there? Surely there must be one or two in a city the size of Toronto?
Surely, there is more than one of you in a big city like Toronto, eh?

Born January 14, 1930

  Well, RLGK, I see that you are a bit older than I.  My father was a precisionist, so when my mother said for 1929 Xmas she wanted a baby as a present, my father complied.  I was born Sept. 26th, 1930. 

(Sorry for disrupting the flow of the thread.)

Occam