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A Metaphysics introduces himself, or just call me Kurt ~
Posted: 13 May 2011 12:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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George - 11 May 2011 06:52 AM

BTW, that quote by Lewis sounds dumb. Christian theology cannot fit in science since science would have a very difficult time explaining a human being walking on water or being born to a virgin mother.

IMO, the signature is for the most part intelligent and enlightening. In addition, you are utilizing only one religion as an example, still science could describe how a human could walk on water, by various methods, or even a virgin birth, such as cloning etc. Science can probably duplicate every miracle in the bible.

Regarding morality: Would Jesus agree with the killing bin Laden? You know, all that stuff with turning the other cheek…

I don’t know if Jesus would agree with the killing or murder of Bin Laden. The way I interpret the bible is that if Jesus determined that killing Mr. Laden was murder or a righteous killing. I suspect the question Jesus would ask or determine is if the killing of Mr Laden was a righteous killing or was it a murder. If it was murder he would condemn the killing. If killing Laden was justified or righteous Jesus would condone it. Nevertheless, I can not read the mind of Christ. The name for trusting in an moral authority is absolutism, or in my case I might be defined as an metaphysical absolutist, in any case we absolutists are shunned by most secular humanists.

The scientific point of view can be a part of art no problem, as is evident by the success of, for example, Sagan’s Cosmos or Star Trek.

I was not sure of what Lewis meant by that except that hard science does not employ art in its methodology.

Rb

[ Edited: 13 May 2011 12:52 AM by RevHeadBanger ]
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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 13 May 2011 01:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Mriana - 12 May 2011 08:23 AM
TromboneAndrew - 12 May 2011 03:58 AM
George - 10 May 2011 01:57 PM

I think I understand the psychology behind the title of a “Metaphysicaist/thiest.” It means that one believes in God but doesn’t share the level of intelligence with other theists.  cheese

Now, now. It’s more likely that he just didn’t use spell-check.

My spell check doesn’t have the word, so I took my best stab at metaphysicist.  However, theist should have been in the spell check.  So I’d cut him a little slack.  Spell check is nice, but it doesn’t have every word.

Or to discover his error he could have used a search engine for the offending words that were not in his nor his word processors ‘lexicon’.  You are correct spell check is horrid at times, and its inaccuracy and limited word storage etc has embarrassed me more than once! Ha ha. Here is a paragraph with the correct usage of metaphysicist (see the bolded red word);

“....Metaphysics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A person who studies metaphysics would be called either a metaphysicist or a ... including existence, the definition of object, property, space, time, ..... According to Leibniz, if some object x is identical to some object y, ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics…”

rb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 13 May 2011 01:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Occam. - 12 May 2011 03:15 PM

I have avoided responding in this thread until I saw more of what the new person posted.  However, as a scientist, I am strongly offended by the sig he’s added in red.  Sorry, Revheadbanger, but while you may criticize George and DarronS for their posts, I find yours just as obnoxious to my beliefs as you may find theirs.  In general we try to be courteous and respect others, but when one enters the forum as if it were a battlefield, one has to expect responses in kind. 

I realize that we all have a hard time seeing comments we make based on our own biases as being other than honest and without malice, however, it’s similar to a racist who tells what he considers merely a clever joke that happens to be based on what he sees as an obvious characteristic of, say, African-Americans, Latinos, Asian, etc. and can’t see why everyone else feels it is insulting.  I’m sure you don’t feel any conscious animus toward me, however, I feel your sig is insulting.

Occam

I am made unhappy by the “sub-Christian” part of the signature. What does that mean? I fear it appears entirely racist, elitist, and overly full of itself. Christanity, that is, and this person’s view of it.


C

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“You can tell me that it’s gospel but I know that it’s only church.”

Tom Waits

“I take a simple view of life. It is keep your eyes open and get on with it.”

Laurence Sterne

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Posted: 13 May 2011 02:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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You would be surprised about the company I keep.  How can one hate everything when their own family is biracial?  I only have a problem when someone pushes their views on myself or others, then I can be just as ugly and hateful.  I also do not appreciate bigotry, racism, or other intolerant behaviour and I can get very hateful in return when I see it.  I did think you were saying you were a mataphysicist and a theist, which isn’t a big deal to me.


Thanks! My family at one time was biracial.(My English Grammar suffers,  because my first language is French) Anyway, my daughter in law was black and I am a mongol, ha, ha (white, kind of), even if not by blood, we experienced many of the issues that biological biracial family would. As far as someone pushing their beliefs on others I somewhat agree. The line between preaching and discussing issues is fine indeed, and it’s oftentimes difficult to call when that line has been crossed. I am an ordained minister but do not preach. I use my missions and church as a way to serve God. I am fascinated by Metaphysics* and earned my MA in comparative religion some years ago. Lastly I only express my beliefs when its necessary in debate or when asked etc. (there is an exception to that rule)

I have included some hopefully useful information of Metaphysics and of Kurt Godel who championed the cause of Metaphysics in a virtual Daniels Den of Lions where the beasts were Logical Positivists and his beloved Theism and Metaphysics were on the menu!  Fortunately for the science of mathematics and so much more, the most brilliant logician of the 20th century wasn’t eaten!

metaphysics - definition of metaphysics by the Free Online ...met·a·phys·ics (m t -f z ks). n. 1. (used with a sing. verb) Philosophy The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the ...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/metaphysics

*(this is a nice review that sums up why I admire Godel) http://www.amazon.com/Kurt-Gödel-Unpublished-Philosophical-Essays/product-reviews/3764353104

 

This is true, not all metaphysicists are atheists.  It is not unusual for some scientists to compartmentalize science and religion.  For them, it is the only way to deal with the traditional views they were taught as a child and the scientific view they learned in college and as a scientist.  That is a personal thing and not something I wish to judge scientist for doing.  I have a psychology degree and while I am a humanist and there are many who have a psychology degree and/or psychologists (that didn’t come out quite right) who are humanists/atheists, there are also some who are liberal Xians.  When I finally left religion, of which I left because I could not believe it anymore, I came out of the Episcopal Church, which has many scientists, doctors, psychologists, and other highly educated people.  So, I understand some people try to hang on to that last thread of belief.

I now see why you are so well rounded in your ability to appreciate all sides of the issues. Its always refreshing to discuss said issues with someone that possesses the constitution, history as well as educational attributes that you present.  You may be surprised that I had to become a theist because of the evidences brought forth by science, or at least science and its implications played a huge part in my conversion from atheist to agnostic to deism to Christianity in that order. Hey I better stop with the words, everyone might think you are paying me to say em’ eh? Ha ha~

I thank you for the compliment, but I don’t do it just so people will donate and/or good business.  I give everyone a fair chance before I pass any judgment call on them, my thoughts and opinions concerning religion not withstanding.  However, as I said, even I can only tolerate so much- from both sides.  Thus, I don’t agree with the remarks made prior to your last post,

Thank you, however if I thought you did it ‘just so people would donate etc’ I would not said those things because it would have made me a liar ha ha! I believe you and think you have a good heart and are ethical. I can determine that just by what you have said up to this point.

but at the same time, I do agree to following the rules of the forum, meaning your siggy was not that way before I welcomed you and now it is.  That is a bit of a problem given the rules. As Doug pointed out there are rules here and while your siggy promotes a non-profit organization, it is still trying to sell something and that is religion.  I personally am not fond of that, but I cannot say you mean harm at this point.  I am also not fond of snide remarks or questions that are not honest ones from other atheists either.

I am going to remove the sig and the picture to promote good faith. I didn’t mean to get you in trouble or make it seem as if you endorsed my words. Thanks for your reply.


rb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 13 May 2011 02:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Bees Mom - 13 May 2011 01:19 AM
Occam. - 12 May 2011 03:15 PM

I have avoided responding in this thread until I saw more of what the new person posted.  However, as a scientist, I am strongly offended by the sig he’s added in red.  Sorry, Revheadbanger, but while you may criticize George and DarronS for their posts, I find yours just as obnoxious to my beliefs as you may find theirs.  In general we try to be courteous and respect others, but when one enters the forum as if it were a battlefield, one has to expect responses in kind. 

I realize that we all have a hard time seeing comments we make based on our own biases as being other than honest and without malice, however, it’s similar to a racist who tells what he considers merely a clever joke that happens to be based on what he sees as an obvious characteristic of, say, African-Americans, Latinos, Asian, etc. and can’t see why everyone else feels it is insulting.  I’m sure you don’t feel any conscious animus toward me, however, I feel your sig is insulting.

Occam

I am made unhappy by the “sub-Christian” part of the signature. What does that mean? I fear it appears entirely racist, elitist, and overly full of itself. Christanity, that is, and this person’s view of it.


C

I like Lewis and do not read so much into his work as you guys seem to (for obvious reasons I suppose). Actually I was in a hurry and just selected one at random, and it turned out not to be one of my favorites! I just wanted to get something up. Hey, that said, do you like the new one? I hope so its as universal as I get!  And notice I removed the photograph of the 40’ crosses I built on the mission land. Anyway I removed it as a matter of good faith. Its a good thing I don’t have to do that to the real things!

rb

[ Edited: 13 May 2011 02:47 AM by RevHeadBanger ]
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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 13 May 2011 03:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 12:22 AM
dougsmith - 11 May 2011 04:12 AM

OK, this thread has gotten off to a bad start. Kurt, it’s understandable you would want to respond in kind to the snarky and intemperate comments by Darron and George. But since you’re new around here, do be aware of our rules which discourage elevated rhetoric for its own sake, including trolling and personally abusive speech. We do have some leeway in understanding that otherwise interesting arguments can get heated and out of hand, but we’re particularly leery of newbies who come in with rhetorical guns blazing. FYI we do have people with all sorts of beliefs here, including conservative Christianity, and we welcome serious discussion and argumentation from any angle, but we don’t tolerate people who are here only to disrupt or troll.  Thanks.

I fully understand your comments. However, it seems that before I made one post, (other than my benign introduction)some of your members created a hostile environment. Only one member responded like I was something other than a turd in a punch bowl. Yes, my replies were a little mean however I was simply defending myself. If I must endure being insulted by your members for no reason other than being a religious/spiritual type, without the option to defend myself,  I will happily go away.

No worries. The issue is one of proportionality, and focusing on claims and arguments rather than persons, generally speaking.

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Doug

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Posted: 13 May 2011 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 12:22 AM

I fully understand your comments. However, it seems that before I made one post, (other than my benign introduction)some of your members created a hostile environment.

Nope. You have your timeline wrong. George and I did not post on this thread until after you had posted in other threads. Had I not seen your hostile attitude in other threads I would have ignored this introductory thread. And I stand behind my comment about William Lane Craig. Anyone who believes his ignorant views will not fit in on these forums.

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“In the beginning, God created the universe. This has made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.”
Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

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Posted: 13 May 2011 06:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 12:47 AM

IMO, the signature is for the most part intelligent and enlightening. In addition, you are utilizing only one religion as an example, still science could describe how a human could walk on water, by various methods, or even a virgin birth, such as cloning etc. Science can probably duplicate every miracle in the bible.

No, the quote is a typical C.S. Lewis garbage. If Jesus was Mary’s clone he would not had been a dude. Plus, if he was Mary’s clone he wouldn’t had been the son of God.

As for other religions, maybe you can tell me how, for example, J. Craig Venter would go about implanting a genome of a swan in Zeus while removing his original genome, sending him on his amorous conquests and then turning him back into a man.

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Posted: 13 May 2011 10:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Hi rb. I posted in another thread that I would be interested to hear your favorite proof of God’s existence. Shall we head over to the philosophy forum?

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“What people do is they confuse cynicism with skepticism. Cynicism is ‘you can’t change anything, everything sucks, there’s no point to anything.’ Skepticism is, ‘well, I’m not so sure.’” -Bill Nye

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Posted: 13 May 2011 05:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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RevHeadBanger, please see my comment as a moderator on your initial post.

Occam

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Posted: 13 May 2011 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 02:32 AM

I like Lewis and do not read so much into his work as you guys seem to (for obvious reasons I suppose). Actually I was in a hurry and just selected one at random, and it turned out not to be one of my favorites! I just wanted to get something up. Hey, that said, do you like the new one? I hope so its as universal as I get!  And notice I removed the photograph of the 40’ crosses I built on the mission land. Anyway I removed it as a matter of good faith. Its a good thing I don’t have to do that to the real things!

rb

I did not see the crosses. Yes, this quote is better.

C

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“You can tell me that it’s gospel but I know that it’s only church.”

Tom Waits

“I take a simple view of life. It is keep your eyes open and get on with it.”

Laurence Sterne

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Posted: 13 May 2011 08:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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dougsmith - 13 May 2011 03:58 AM
RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 12:22 AM
dougsmith - 11 May 2011 04:12 AM

OK, this thread has gotten off to a bad start. Kurt, it’s understandable you would want to respond in kind to the snarky and intemperate comments by Darron and George. But since you’re new around here, do be aware of our rules which discourage elevated rhetoric for its own sake, including trolling and personally abusive speech. We do have some leeway in understanding that otherwise interesting arguments can get heated and out of hand, but we’re particularly leery of newbies who come in with rhetorical guns blazing. FYI we do have people with all sorts of beliefs here, including conservative Christianity, and we welcome serious discussion and argumentation from any angle, but we don’t tolerate people who are here only to disrupt or troll.  Thanks.

I fully understand your comments. However, it seems that before I made one post, (other than my benign introduction)some of your members created a hostile environment. Only one member responded like I was something other than a turd in a punch bowl. Yes, my replies were a little mean however I was simply defending myself. If I must endure being insulted by your members for no reason other than being a religious/spiritual type, without the option to defend myself,  I will happily go away.

No worries. The issue is one of proportionality, and focusing on claims and arguments rather than persons, generally speaking.

Thanks for your reply, I am attempting to remedy the proportionally issue by posting on non religious and less inflammatory topics, however I am wordy, I am a preacher what do you expect? Ha ha ~ Thanks for your reply Dougsmith.

rb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 13 May 2011 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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DarronS - 13 May 2011 05:43 AM
RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 12:22 AM

I fully understand your comments. However, it seems that before I made one post, (other than my benign introduction)some of your members created a hostile environment.

Nope. You have your timeline wrong. George and I did not post on this thread until after you had posted in other threads. Had I not seen your hostile attitude in other threads I would have ignored this introductory thread. And I stand behind my comment about William Lane Craig. Anyone who believes his ignorant views will not fit in on these forums.

Craig possesses at least two advanced degrees. Some of his achievements are ;  (1) ...PhD, University of Birmingham, England; (2) Doctor of Theol, University of Munich, Germany, (3) is research professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology in La Mirada, California. Dr Craig is successful as an author. He has penned several Books, stacks of scholarly articles, many peer reviewed ranging from Christian apologists to advanced philosophy. His work also includes reams of popular reads on difficult philosophical and theological subjects. So my puny masters pales in comparison either to his academic achievements, and likewise my life’s work is not so stellar compared to Dr Craigs achievements. With all due respect what credentials do you possess in either life experience or academic areas that gives you the authority to critique Dr Craig views as’ ignorant’. I suppose I should ask if you are using the word ‘ignorant’ as an insult or the normal definition of the world ie; ” ignorant..(1).  lacking knowledge: lacking knowledge and education in general or in a specific subject
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
 

Nevertheless I would like to say that I give anyone respect and credit for their achievements be they secular or be they spiritual. As I was told in the army (101st airborne) when I was having a difficult time respecting my company commander, a general asked me to respect his uniform and what it stands for, not the man that is wearing the uniform. That bit of simple advice has served me well. Lastly I feel if your sentiment is true then I will not fit into this forum, but I already knew that after the first few posts, and it has nothing do do with Craig in my humble opinion. Lastly per your comments about the time-line etc. I am attempting to abide by the rules of this forum so all my statements made after my reply to dougsmith supersedes all prior claims etc. so the time line is moot. 

rb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 13 May 2011 08:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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George - 13 May 2011 06:38 AM
RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 12:47 AM

IMO, the signature is for the most part intelligent and enlightening. In addition, you are utilizing only one religion as an example, still science could describe how a human could walk on water, by various methods, or even a virgin birth, such as cloning etc. Science can probably duplicate every miracle in the bible.

No, the quote is a typical C.S. Lewis garbage. If Jesus was Mary’s clone he would not had been a dude. Plus, if he was Mary’s clone he wouldn’t had been the son of God.

We can agree to disagree, its not a big thing as per my reply.

As for other religions, maybe you can tell me how, for example, J. Craig Venter would go about implanting a genome of a swan in Zeus while removing his original genome, sending him on his amorous conquests and then turning him back into a man.

Hell if I know! Ha ha~ I only claim expert in several areas of specific religions etc and the attributes that support them.

rb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 13 May 2011 08:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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domokato - 13 May 2011 10:05 AM

Hi rb. I posted in another thread that I would be interested to hear your favorite proof of God’s existence. Shall we head over to the philosophy forum?

I will head that way ASAP. Thanks for your queries.

rb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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