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A Metaphysics introduces himself, or just call me Kurt ~
Posted: 13 May 2011 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Occam. - 13 May 2011 05:33 PM

RevHeadBanger, please see my comment as a moderator on your initial post.Occam

Oops sorry for missing you! As per your request;

Occam. - 12 May 2011 03:15 PM

I have avoided responding in this thread until I saw more of what the new person posted.  However, as a scientist, I am strongly offended by the sig he’s added in red.  Sorry, Revheadbanger, but while you may criticize George and DarronS for their posts, I find yours just as obnoxious to my beliefs as you may find theirs.  In general we try to be courteous and respect others, but when one enters the forum as if it were a battlefield, one has to expect responses in kind. 

I came into this forum with my intro and was not aware it was so war like and hostile. However after reading some responses I did perhaps too quickly assume a war footing, but that is more of a personality defect than anything else. I have a type a personality and was out on my own when I was 14 years old by my own devices. So I learned the ways of the street which included when in a fight verbal or otherwise do not get sucker punched and be suspicious. Then when in a fight do not stop until the other guy is unconscious. I use the same tactics in debate as many do. And chess. And poker. And when I was in business, And life in general. Ha ha. Happily I can report I joined the army when I turned 17 and they taught me a thing or two about respect etc. 

I realize that we all have a hard time seeing comments we make based on our own biases as being other than honest and without malice, however, it’s similar to a racist who tells what he considers merely a clever joke that happens to be based on what he sees as an obvious characteristic of, say, African-Americans, Latinos, Asian, etc. and can’t see why everyone else feels it is insulting.  I’m sure you don’t feel any conscious animus toward me, however, I feel your sig is insulting.

Occam

I see that you changed your sig, both in color and content so that the comment above no longer applies.  I’m happy that you saw the validity of my concern.

Yes, well even though I have some ingrained psychological defects, I have learned that when one makes a mistake its best to correct the mistake and apologize if necessary. Maybe things will work out yet…

rb

[ Edited: 13 May 2011 09:08 PM by RevHeadBanger ]
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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 13 May 2011 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Bees Mom - 13 May 2011 05:37 PM
RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 02:32 AM

I like Lewis and do not read so much into his work as you guys seem to (for obvious reasons I suppose). Actually I was in a hurry and just selected one at random, and it turned out not to be one of my favorites! I just wanted to get something up. Hey, that said, do you like the new one? I hope so its as universal as I get!  And notice I removed the photograph of the 40’ crosses I built on the mission land. Anyway I removed it as a matter of good faith. Its a good thing I don’t have to do that to the real things!

rb

I did not see the crosses. Yes, this quote is better.

C

I am genuinely   interested in this forum on several levels. While I have many atheist and secular friends I do not feel comfortable discussing some of the deeper issues with them fearing I will insult them or worse. I know the intellectual and academic/philosophical nuances of atheism, secularism, including human secularism etc however, I would like to get to know some of the members here to learn what can’t be taught in a semester or five. There is no substitute for one on one convo. Additionally even as I approach geezerhood I am even more intensely interested in the Universe, reality, and even some fringe stuff like quantum reality definition at;

quantumhttp://www.dhushara.com/book/quantcos/quant1/quant.htm

My faith and spirituality can answer most of the profound questions such as ‘why we are here ?’ however there remain pesky loose ends and other interesting problems. Additionally I must say neither science nor theology has all the answers, or if theology does have all the answers it’s not allowing even we theologists to see the entire big picture! Indeed, scripture itself tells us that some things will remain hidden until the angels open the last seal as Armageddon is unfolding! Trust me, I would rather learn these things BEFORE the last days!

So I do beleive that sometimes a different perspective is all it takes to solve a difficult problem. You know what I mean? Some complicated problems are so obvious! It’s like ***head slap*** why didn’t I think of that! Even Einsteins E=MC2, at least the big picture sans the horribly complicated math, is easy. All he was saying is that mass is frozen energy. That is so very obvious! And he solved it partly acting on a day? dream*, ie another perspective. So maybe we can walk down the path to discovery together rather than waiting in ambush eh?

http://cse.edc.org/products/historyphysics/bios.asp

rb


DISCLAIMER; SORRY FOR THE HASTILY WRITTEN REPLIES IN THIS THREAD (THIS SAT. EARLY AM) ALL ARE UNEDITED FOR CLARITY AND GRAMMAR, BECAUSE THE TELESCOPE IS CALLING ME TO COME OUT AND VIEW BEFORE ANOTHER SERIES OF THUNDERSTORMS RAGES THROUGH THIS AREA!

[ Edited: 13 May 2011 09:45 PM by RevHeadBanger ]
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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 13 May 2011 10:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 09:24 PM
Bees Mom - 13 May 2011 05:37 PM
RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 02:32 AM

I like Lewis and do not read so much into his work as you guys seem to (for obvious reasons I suppose). Actually I was in a hurry and just selected one at random, and it turned out not to be one of my favorites! I just wanted to get something up. Hey, that said, do you like the new one? I hope so its as universal as I get!  And notice I removed the photograph of the 40’ crosses I built on the mission land. Anyway I removed it as a matter of good faith. Its a good thing I don’t have to do that to the real things!

rb

I did not see the crosses. Yes, this quote is better.

C

I am genuinely   interested in this forum on several levels. While I have many atheist and secular friends I do not feel comfortable discussing some of the deeper issues with them fearing I will insult them or worse. I know the intellectual and academic/philosophical nuances of atheism, secularism, including human secularism etc however, I would like to get to know some of the members here to learn what can’t be taught in a semester or five. There is no substitute for one on one convo. Additionally even as I approach geezerhood I am even more intensely interested in the Universe, reality, and even some fringe stuff like quantum reality definition at;

quantumhttp://www.dhushara.com/book/quantcos/quant1/quant.htm

My faith and spirituality can answer most of the profound questions such as ‘why we are here ?’ however there remain pesky loose ends and other interesting problems. Additionally I must say neither science nor theology has all the answers, or if theology does have all the answers it’s not allowing even we theologists to see the entire big picture! Indeed, scripture itself tells us that some things will remain hidden until the angels open the last seal as Armageddon is unfolding! Trust me, I would rather learn these things BEFORE the last days!

So I do beleive that sometimes a different perspective is all it takes to solve a difficult problem. You know what I mean? Some complicated problems are so obvious! It’s like ***head slap*** why didn’t I think of that! Even Einsteins E=MC2, at least the big picture sans the horribly complicated math, is easy. All he was saying is that mass is frozen energy. That is so very obvious! And he solved it partly acting on a day? dream*, ie another perspective. So maybe we can walk down the path to discovery together rather than waiting in ambush eh?

http://cse.edc.org/products/historyphysics/bios.asp

rb


DISCLAIMER; SORRY FOR THE HASTILY WRITTEN REPLIES IN THIS THREAD (THIS SAT. EARLY AM) ALL ARE UNEDITED FOR CLARITY AND GRAMMAR, BECAUSE THE TELESCOPE IS CALLING ME TO COME OUT AND VIEW BEFORE ANOTHER SERIES OF THUNDERSTORMS RAGES THROUGH THIS AREA!

I get what you are saying about “the path to discovery”,but faith and reason are ultimately different and some headbutting might be inevitable.

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Posted: 13 May 2011 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 09:24 PM

DISCLAIMER; SORRY FOR THE HASTILY WRITTEN REPLIES IN THIS THREAD (THIS SAT. EARLY AM) ALL ARE UNEDITED FOR CLARITY AND GRAMMAR, BECAUSE THE TELESCOPE IS CALLING ME TO COME OUT AND VIEW BEFORE ANOTHER SERIES OF THUNDERSTORMS RAGES THROUGH THIS AREA!

Emphasis added.

You and I have a common interest right there. Aside from the all caps I can appreciate this post. Astronomy is my hobby. What kind of telescope do you have?

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Posted: 14 May 2011 05:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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RB
I consider myself to be a metaphysical naturalist / humanist. I know that there are several members here who have also used this phrase.
However “metaphysical” is not the same as “supernatural”. I suspect that this is where your ID of metaphysicist / theist departs from the scientific approach in favor of faith.

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Posted: 14 May 2011 10:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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RevHeadBanger, I asked you to change the color of your signature since blue is reserved for moderators when they post in that capacity.  Since I can change posts but not modify signatures, I’d like you to do so.  Otherwise, I’ll just go through and delete each of your posts that have that blue signature.  Note, that means I’d have to delete all of them.

Occam

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Posted: 15 May 2011 12:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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DarronS - 13 May 2011 10:24 PM
RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 09:24 PM

>>>>Snippie<<<<<!

You and I have a common interest right there. Aside from the all caps I can appreciate this post. Astronomy is my hobby. What kind of telescope do you have?

Thanks, ha ha the caps are for attention getting, sorry if they irritated your sensibilities! However to answer your question I have an (Orion) Skyquest intellascope (10” aperture) with a object locater that arrived last week! Before that I had a Pro 8 which was a great scope. I am a Mustang over a BMW man. There are more expensive scopes that have the same performance etc. however sometimes I feel we buy the name more than the performance.  while Orion is a cheaper scope I have been satisfied with their products.

Do you have any favorite viewing preferences? By that I mean do you prefer M objects over planetary objects etc? I am wanting to trade a gun or two for a smaller scope that I can easily transport, or even a pair of good astronomy binoculars. As a non profit business owner these are lean days! Thanks for your reply and I am happy to meet a kindred soul in the art and science of astronomer.

rb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 15 May 2011 12:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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mid atlantic - 13 May 2011 10:12 PM
RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 09:24 PM
Bees Mom - 13 May 2011 05:37 PM
RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 02:32 AM

I like Lewis and do not read so much into his work as you guys seem to (for obvious reasons I suppose). Actually I was in a hurry and just selected one at random, and it turned out not to be one of my favorites! I just wanted to get something up. Hey, that said, do you like the new one? I hope so its as universal as I get!  And notice I removed the photograph of the 40’ crosses I built on the mission land. Anyway I removed it as a matter of good faith. Its a good thing I don’t have to do that to the real things!

rb

I did not see the crosses. Yes, this quote is better.

C

I am genuinely   interested in this forum on several levels. While I have many atheist and secular friends I do not feel comfortable discussing some of the deeper issues with them fearing I will insult them or worse. I know the intellectual and academic/philosophical nuances of atheism, secularism, including human secularism etc however, I would like to get to know some of the members here to learn what can’t be taught in a semester or five. There is no substitute for one on one convo. Additionally even as I approach geezerhood I am even more intensely interested in the Universe, reality, and even some fringe stuff like quantum reality definition at;

quantumhttp://www.dhushara.com/book/quantcos/quant1/quant.htm

My faith and spirituality can answer most of the profound questions such as ‘why we are here ?’ however there remain pesky loose ends and other interesting problems. Additionally I must say neither science nor theology has all the answers, or if theology does have all the answers it’s not allowing even we theologists to see the entire big picture! Indeed, scripture itself tells us that some things will remain hidden until the angels open the last seal as Armageddon is unfolding! Trust me, I would rather learn these things BEFORE the last days!

So I do beleive that sometimes a different perspective is all it takes to solve a difficult problem. You know what I mean? Some complicated problems are so obvious! It’s like ***head slap*** why didn’t I think of that! Even Einsteins E=MC2, at least the big picture sans the horribly complicated math, is easy. All he was saying is that mass is frozen energy. That is so very obvious! And he solved it partly acting on a day? dream*, ie another perspective. So maybe we can walk down the path to discovery together rather than waiting in ambush eh?

http://cse.edc.org/products/historyphysics/bios.asp

rb


DISCLAIMER; SORRY FOR THE HASTILY WRITTEN REPLIES IN THIS THREAD (THIS SAT. EARLY AM) ALL ARE UNEDITED FOR CLARITY AND GRAMMAR, BECAUSE THE TELESCOPE IS CALLING ME TO COME OUT AND VIEW BEFORE ANOTHER SERIES OF THUNDERSTORMS RAGES THROUGH THIS AREA!

I get what you are saying about “the path to discovery”,but faith and reason are ultimately different and some headbutting might be inevitable.

Yes I am aware that faith and reason can be different. However I do claim that religious faith and everyday faith are similar enough to say that we all must possess faith to navigate through what we call reality. Maybe I should ask are you using the dictionary definition of faith and reason? Ie;

faith  

faith [fayth]
(plural faiths)
n
1.  belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
2.  religion religion or religious group: a system of religious belief, or the group of people who adhere to it
3.  religion trust in God: belief in and devotion to God
Her faith is unwavering.
4.  set of beliefs: a strongly held set of beliefs or principles
people of different political faiths

 

rea·son   rea·son [rz’n]
n (plural rea·sons)
1.  justification: an explanation or justification for something
refused to give a reason for her behavior
2.  motive: a motive or cause for acting or thinking in a particular way
His only reason for going was that she would be there.
3.  power of orderly thought: the power of being able to think in a logical and rational manner
use reason rather than force
4.  cause that explains something: a cause that explains a particular phenomenon
What’s the reason for grass being green?
5.  ability to think clearly: the ability to think clearly and coherently
6.  philosophy intellect as basis for knowledge: the ability to think logically regarded as a basis for knowledge, as distinct from experience or emotions

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

I have found in debate that its best to define the words before getting into a serious discussion only to find that we are not in agreement with the definition of the words !

rb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 15 May 2011 01:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Write4U - 14 May 2011 05:18 PM

RB
I consider myself to be a metaphysical naturalist / humanist. I know that there are several members here who have also used this phrase.
However “metaphysical” is not the same as “supernatural”. I suspect that this is where your ID of metaphysicist / theist departs from the scientific approach in favor of faith.

Semi-Correct! I am just defining that I beleive in what we call supernatural events and how metaphysics apply to the supernatural events. One can be a metaphysicist but not a theist. However, I think it would be difficult to be a Christian that is not subscribe to metaphysics as well. Let me define what metaphyics means to me to make sure we are on the same page?

“Derived from the Greek meta ta physika (“after the things of nature”); referring to an idea, doctrine, or posited reality outside of human sense perception. In modern philosophical terminology, metaphysics refers to the studies of what cannot be reached through objective studies of material reality. Areas of metaphysical studies include ontology, cosmology, and often, epistemology.”

http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/metaph-body.html

This is at the core of my beleifs and I rely heavily on metaphysics to define and explain the existence of God. I would take a chance (but hopefully this will not offend anyone) to say most Secular Humanists are also Logical Positivists. Not that secularists can not subscribe to Metaphysics rather its the difficulty of adapting LP with Metaphysics.

So, to summarize, the term metaphysical theist just means that I am subscribe to metaphysics as opposed to Logical positivism and that I use it as a construct in the supernatural aspects of my religious paradigm. Thanks for your reply.

rb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 15 May 2011 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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RevHeadBanger - 15 May 2011 12:38 AM

...I have an (Orion) Skyquest intellascope (10” aperture) with a object locater that arrived last week! Before that I had a Pro 8 which was a great scope. I am a Mustang over a BMW man. There are more expensive scopes that have the same performance etc. however sometimes I feel we buy the name more than the performance.  while Orion is a cheaper scope I have been satisfied with their products.

Do you have any favorite viewing preferences? By that I mean do you prefer M objects over planetary objects etc? I am wanting to trade a gun or two for a smaller scope that I can easily transport, or even a pair of good astronomy binoculars. As a non profit business owner these are lean days! Thanks for your reply and I am happy to meet a kindred soul in the art and science of astronomer.

rb

Nice telescope. Several of our club members own that same telescope. I have a Teeter 8-inch STS. As you can see if you follow the link I’m more of a BMW than Mustang guy when it comes to telescopes. I also own some Televue Nagler eyepieces. Enjoy your Orion telescope. It is a good piece of kit, and Orion has superb customer service.

My viewing preferences are dictated by the time of year and how far away I can get from city lights. Orion and Sagittarius are my favorite constellations, with Virgo a close third. Planets and the Moon fascinate me too. My favorite part of astronomy is doing public outreach. I love showing people the beautiful sights, especially children, but a couple of weeks ago I was at a winery showing people Saturn and a 73-year-old man thanked me and told me he had never looked at Saturn through a telescope. He was so awe3d by its beauty he was almost in tears. That is the sort of stuff that makes public outreach so rewarding.

If you need something more transportable look at the Orion Starblast 6. Binos are fine, but you’ll you’ll need a mount to make using the binos enjoyable and that partially negates the portability factor.

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Posted: 15 May 2011 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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RevHeadBanger - 13 May 2011 09:24 PM

My faith and spirituality can answer most of the profound questions such as ‘why we are here ?’ however there remain pesky loose ends and other interesting problems. Additionally I must say neither science nor theology has all the answers, or if theology does have all the answers it’s not allowing even we theologists to see the entire big picture! Indeed, scripture itself tells us that some things will remain hidden until the angels open the last seal as Armageddon is unfolding! Trust me, I would rather learn these things BEFORE the last days!

No, science can’t tell us why we are here and neither can religion, but it is very good as explaining how we got here, something religion has tried to do but has failed.

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Posted: 15 May 2011 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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RevHeadBanger - 15 May 2011 01:17 AM
Write4U - 14 May 2011 05:18 PM

RB
I consider myself to be a metaphysical naturalist / humanist. I know that there are several members here who have also used this phrase.
However “metaphysical” is not the same as “supernatural”. I suspect that this is where your ID of metaphysicist / theist departs from the scientific approach in favor of faith.

Semi-Correct! I am just defining that I beleive in what we call supernatural events and how metaphysics apply to the supernatural events. One can be a metaphysicist but not a theist. However, I think it would be difficult to be a Christian that is not subscribe to metaphysics as well. Let me define what metaphyics means to me to make sure we are on the same page?

“Derived from the Greek meta ta physika (“after the things of nature”); referring to an idea, doctrine, or posited reality outside of human sense perception. In modern philosophical terminology, metaphysics refers to the studies of what cannot be reached through objective studies of material reality. Areas of metaphysical studies include ontology, cosmology, and often, epistemology.”

http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/metaph-body.html

The term “After the things of nature” was coined by a librarian for purpose of filing papers which dealt with thoughts and speculations of those things we cannot observe directly. There was already a section dealing with “Things of Nature”, so he named the new section “After the Things of Nature”

http://atheism.about.com/od/philosophybranches/p/Metaphysics.htm

This is at the core of my beleifs and I rely heavily on metaphysics to define and explain the existence of God. I would take a chance (but hopefully this will not offend anyone) to say most Secular Humanists are also Logical Positivists. Not that secularists can not subscribe to Metaphysics rather its the difficulty of adapting LP with Metaphysics.

So, to summarize, the term metaphysical theist just means that I am subscribe to metaphysics as opposed to Logical positivism and that I use it as a construct in the supernatural aspects of my religious paradigm.
rb

Ok, setting religion aside and concentrating only on metaphysics and the possible existence of a supernatural, non-physical intelligent entity which was causal to the universe, but “very rarely” interferes with the natural world.

I consider metaphysics as dealing with conditions and events beyond our event horizon. This not the same as “supernatural”. Logically there is no reason to believe that anything beyond “our” event horizon should not be part of the natural state of the cosmos (inherent order).

The concept of God introduces an unnecessary condition of intelligence. Logically this is very problematic as it raises more questions than answers, such as, how does a non-physical entity think, how does god create anything, how or what created god?

IMO, the difference in metaphysics (based on logic) and supernaturalism (based on faith) is obvious. The first can be objectively analyzed by inference from events which happen beyond our event horizon, by their effects which are observable in our natural world, and from which scientific models can be fashioned.
example: we know there are particles which can only exist beyond our event horizon (FTL), particles which can only exist at our event horizon (SOL), and particles which can never reach the required speed to escape our event horizon (STL).

If anything, this proves that “narural” events can and do happen beyond our event horizon, even as we cannot go there physically.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/30/us-science-cern-idUSTRE62T1LE20100330

The concept of a supernatural god is a subjective “experience” and cannot be logically analyzed and quantified. No experiment can be fashioned that will confirm or reject the existence of God. This is the very reason why, in theology, there can never be concensus about the “nature” of god. There are as many gods as there are people and some high order hominids. Your hope of “defining” god through metaphysics IMO is an exercise in futility.

However, there is an alternative concept of a metaphysical “non intelligent natural condition” which was/is required for initial creation and evolution of the universe and which may possibly be quantified and renders moot the concept of an “intelligent” God.

[ Edited: 15 May 2011 03:45 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 15 May 2011 05:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Thanks for the sig change, RHB.

I have a somewhat different and possibly broader definition of faith. I see it as belief in something for which one does not presently have sufficient proof. 

Just as a theist believes in the existence of a god without being able to prove the god’s existence, my atheistic beliefs are also by faith because I cannot prove the non-existence of a god. 

While I agree with the definitions of reason you posted, unfortunately, many assume because they have given a carefully thought out and correct logically argument, that is, by reason, that their conclusion must be correct.  It’s very easy to start with invalid premises or assumptions.  In those cases, it doesn’t matter how precisely and accurately the path from there is, the conclusion may still be wrong.

Occam

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Posted: 22 May 2011 12:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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DarronS - 15 May 2011 05:23 AM
RevHeadBanger - 15 May 2011 12:38 AM

...I have an (Orion) Skyquest intellascope (10” aperture) with a object locater that arrived last week! Before that I had a Pro 8 which was a great scope. I am a Mustang over a BMW man. There are more expensive scopes that have the same performance etc. however sometimes I feel we buy the name more than the performance.  while Orion is a cheaper scope I have been satisfied with their products.

Do you have any favorite viewing preferences? By that I mean do you prefer M objects over planetary objects etc? I am wanting to trade a gun or two for a smaller scope that I can easily transport, or even a pair of good astronomy binoculars. As a non profit business owner these are lean days! Thanks for your reply and I am happy to meet a kindred soul in the art and science of astronomer.

rb

Nice telescope. Several of our club members own that same telescope. I have a Teeter 8-inch STS. As you can see if you follow the link I’m more of a BMW than Mustang guy when it comes to telescopes. I also own some Televue Nagler eyepieces. Enjoy your Orion telescope. It is a good piece of kit, and Orion has superb customer service.

My viewing preferences are dictated by the time of year and how far away I can get from city lights. Orion and Sagittarius are my favorite constellations, with Virgo a close third. Planets and the Moon fascinate me too. My favorite part of astronomy is doing public outreach. I love showing people the beautiful sights, especially children, but a couple of weeks ago I was at a winery showing people Saturn and a 73-year-old man thanked me and told me he had never looked at Saturn through a telescope. He was so awe3d by its beauty he was almost in tears. That is the sort of stuff that makes public outreach so rewarding.

If you need something more transportable look at the Orion Starblast 6. Binos are fine, but you’ll you’ll need a mount to make using the binos enjoyable and that partially negates the portability factor.

Hello Darron, sorry for the belated reply! First very nice scope! I may be a mustang guy but I highly admire Enzo Anselmo (Ferrari) works of art, the same thing goes with telescopes. I love aesthetic quality of the mounts on teeters, and the optics and quality is suburb. When deciding on this last purchase I read about Waite Research who supplies the primary mirror. Great choice! Personally, I just cannot afford the best instruments, as I have another expensive hobby (Harley Davidson). However, I may sell the Harley, I will always love old iron but at age 57 and one near fatal crash, my priorities are changing! I cannot afford to do both so maybe a better scope later down the road.  Actually, on second thought astronomy as a hobby does not have to be expensive, there are just so many goodies to tempt us, eh?  Hey, me being religious maybe the Vatican will give me some viewing time at their observatory? It is a highly interesting (even for the non-religious) story as to why they built their new observatory and guess what its named Lucifer!

http://333crucible.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/why-did-the-vatican-name-its-new-arizona-telescope-lucifer/

Ha ha~  I also admire your work with the public hosting or attending star parties and sharing your knowledge of astronomy. I haven’t time to that just yet. We have a nice if small astronomy dept at the local college ETSU that hosts many public events. So maybe one day I can give back to the community.

Orion holds a special place in my heart as well. Along with the stars beauty I think there is an association between the layout of the Gaza pyramids in Egypt and the arrangement of the stars in the belt of Orion. I as you enjoy planetary viewing as well as poking around in deep space. Seeing the moon through a friends refractor telescope bought at Sears hooked me as a fifteen year old kid (it had fairly good optics, eh moon was crisp). I had just watched that old science fiction movie ‘first men in the moon’ and was already hyped up…yes that is the thing that endeared me to astronomy.

Sci Fi triva; Joseph Cavor,  invented Cavorite, a substance that will let anything it is applied to or made of deflect the force of gravity. 

See you around ~

rhb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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Posted: 22 May 2011 12:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Occam. - 15 May 2011 05:40 PM

Thanks for the sig change, RHB.
I have a somewhat different and possibly broader definition of faith. I see it as belief in something for which one does not presently have sufficient proof. 
Just as a theist believes in the existence of a god without being able to prove the god’s existence, my atheistic beliefs are also by faith because I cannot prove the non-existence of a god. 
While I agree with the definitions of reason you posted, unfortunately, many assume because they have given a carefully thought out and correct logically argument, that is, by reason, that their conclusion must be correct.  It’s very easy to start with invalid premises or assumptions.  In those cases, it doesn’t matter how precisely and accurately the path from there is, the conclusion may still be wrong.Occam

You are welcome, I shouldn’t have used that quote (sig) in this forum, it was a bit insensitive as well as abrasive and is why, along with attempting abide by the rules I readily changed it. I also will remember your faith comments as a common sense way to look at the two world views or paradigms of Secular humanism and theist and metaphysical constructs. Lastly, I understand your last sentence and agree. I have only said that I choose the cosmological arguments (as evidence to claim God exists) as personal reasons. I do not claim that the conclusion of the various logical arguments for the existence of God mean they are infallible even though their logic may be nearly so! Ha ha I am simply saying they and their evidence is what I use. It helps butters my faith with something solid instead of claiming faith is all the proof I need. In any case I thank you for your civil queries and assessments etc of my method of belief.

rhb

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I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strangely, I am ungrateful to these teachers” ‘Gibran’

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