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Does the universe have a purpose?
Posted: 16 October 2006 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Posted: 16 October 2006 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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I am sorry for my delay in correspondence. I will try to address your concerns.
Is it so hard to accept purpose?
When we have purpose, we have needs.
Purpose is not equal to divine existence however; it does allow clarification for the obvious.
It is easy to say we have no purpose and hard to allow ourselves to feel important.
Without the knowing there can be no existing.
Clearly, the purpose of the universe is to know of its own existence.
The universe does this through a knowing living entity.
Birds can fly, fish can swim so too, the human can reason.
Humanity’s purpose may be simply to recognize its existence and by doing so fulfills the purpose of the universe.
The purpose of the universe is simply to know of its own existence and the universe does this through a knowing living entity.
The creation of a galaxy or the creation of humanity is a natural occurrence within the universe.
If we (humanity) or any other living entities throughout the universe cease to recognize existence then the universe fails to complete its purpose.
The universe is like a tree; all matter within the universe (tree) is what makes the universe (tree) the universe (tree).
The purpose for humanity is to be a knowing living entity that can comprehend a sustained awareness of the universe.
The universe “is” because we (humanity) reason it does exist.
Without a knowing humanity, there cannot be a known universe.
With existence come great earthly accomplishments seen through humanity’s eyes.
However, humanity must first have an ability to create a sustainable environment as we progress within the universe.

When humanity allows false ideologies to establish our purpose we fail to reach our full potential, which first and for most must be to exist.
The religions of our day are dwarfing any chance for a more ambitious purpose.
Anytime a fundamental ideology incorporates the uses of a divine omnipresent force to justify purpose it fails to grasp the primary cause for existence.
Humanity must have unrestricted sustained existence as its primary goal in order to protect its usefulness to the universe.
Life is fulfilling when you are happy to be here.
Many humans today are unhappy and desire conflict over contentment.
We need to get away from the “what do I get out of it” mentality.
We are here"be happy.

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Cosmic Cave

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Posted: 16 October 2006 02:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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George,

Is this not an idea worthy of the Templeton prize? Wink The world is hungry for spirituality and science at the same time. Within this new movement, some kind of neo-Platonism, as Doug said, we could focus on the importance of morality, scientific discoveries, monotheism (one god will be born), pantheism (we are all god), etc. The important part would be that this ‘new religion’ would have to be based on reason and not faith: We co-operate, God will exist. If we don’t, the Universe will miscarry.

We’ll see I took the ball and ran with it - the application for the prize is in.
Jim

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Jimmie Keyes
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http://secularhumanism.meetup.com/1/
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. (MLK Jr.)

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Posted: 16 October 2006 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Posted: 16 October 2006 03:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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[quote author=“George Benedik”][quote author=“dougsmith”]except in the sense that planets will become uninhabitable, stars will go nova, and the heat-death of the universe will kill anything that remains by that time.

:shock:  I’ve always found this shocking and terrifying…but you might be rigt!  :cry:

Well, no worries, it certainly won’t happen in our lifetimes ...

LOL

That said, the existential angst that this gives us is essentially the same as that of viewing our own deaths and the deaths of our loved ones. All is transitory. Whatever value we find in life is in the here-and-now ...

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Posted: 16 October 2006 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Entity, I don’t know how to assess the truth of your speculations, since I don’t find it at all clear what you are suggesting or how we could go about figuring out if it is correct or not.

[quote author=“Entity”]The universe “is” because we (humanity) reason it does exist.
Without a knowing humanity, there cannot be a known universe.

These are very different claims. The first is false, the second is basically true by definition.

The universe “was” before we existed; its existence does not depend on us. Sorry, we aren’t that important.

OTOH, clearly, without things like us that can “know”, there can’t be a “known universe”. That just goes by definition. If no sentient beings had existed, there would have been a universe, but nobody would have known it.

[quote author=“Entity”]Life is fulfilling when you are happy to be here.
Many humans today are unhappy and desire conflict over contentment.
We need to get away from the “what do I get out of it” mentality.
We are here"be happy.

Well, this seems uncontroversial, but rather banal, no?

——————-
Jim,

LOL Best of luck!

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Posted: 16 October 2006 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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[quote author=“jimmiekeyes”]George,

Is this not an idea worthy of the Templeton prize? Wink The world is hungry for spirituality and science at the same time. Within this new movement, some kind of neo-Platonism, as Doug said, we could focus on the importance of morality, scientific discoveries, monotheism (one god will be born), pantheism (we are all god), etc. The important part would be that this ‘new religion’ would have to be based on reason and not faith: We co-operate, God will exist. If we don’t, the Universe will miscarry.

We’ll see I took the ball and ran with it - the application for the prize is in.
Jim

Cool,
A cup is a cup when it holds liquid = purpose
I am not thinking about a Supreme Being.
My argument does not depend on a supreme truth.
Let us look at it as a river of thought is as a river of water. It flows”“
We are here

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Cosmic Cave

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Posted: 16 October 2006 03:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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[quote author=“dougsmith”]Entity, I don’t know how to assess the truth of your speculations, since I don’t find it at all clear what you are suggesting or how we could go about figuring out if it is correct or not.

[quote author=“Entity”]The universe “is” because we (humanity) reason it does exist.
Without a knowing humanity, there cannot be a known universe.

These are very different claims. The first is false, the second is basically true by definition.

The universe “was” before we existed; its existence does not depend on us. Sorry, we aren’t that important.

OTOH, clearly, without things like us that can “know”, there can’t be a “known universe”. That just goes by definition. If no sentient beings had existed, there would have been a universe, but nobody would have known it.

[quote author=“Entity”]Life is fulfilling when you are happy to be here.
Many humans today are unhappy and desire conflict over contentment.
We need to get away from the “what do I get out of it” mentality.
We are here"be happy.

Well, this seems uncontroversial, but rather banal, no?

——————-
Jim,

LOL Best of luck!

I am sure we have not met but you throw around counter arguments as if they are free.
I would enjoy finding out if other terrestrial being exist on other planets.
It would take the pressure off our responsibility but until that day, it may be a good idea to assume we are the only ones.
Humanity is the universe.
Without each, there can be none.
Can something exist without a living knowing entity observing it?
One can say yes”.but how would one know
It seems obvious to me that humanity is needed to complete the universe’s process.

The universe is a plant or a tree or maybe a creek and we see”
I am asking you to think that perhaps”..it is up to humanity to recognize the universe.

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Posted: 16 October 2006 03:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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[quote author=“Entity”]I am sure we have not met but you throw around counter arguments as if they are free.

In fact, they are!

LOL LOL

[quote author=“Entity”]Humanity is the universe.

Once again, this is very hubristic. One may be able to argue that we are particularly valuable as living things, but that isn’t to say we are the universe. We certainly aren’t.

[quote author=“Entity”]The universe is a plant or a tree or maybe a creek and we see”
I am asking you to think that perhaps”..it is up to humanity to recognize the universe.

:?

Sorry, can’t make sense of that.

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Posted: 16 October 2006 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Ok
I am talking about life as being more important than death. Life is success (sustain existence: complete control of time and space) Death is final.

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Cosmic Cave

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Posted: 18 October 2006 03:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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I don’t think Natural Selection will ever come to an end, because all that would be needed would be for one condition in the environment to change, and off we would go on another arms race to catch up with it.

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Posted: 18 October 2006 09:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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[quote author=“Entity”]Ok
I am talking about life as being more important than death. Life is success (sustain existence: complete control of time and space) Death is final.

But what is “life”?

Life is just a complex chemical reaction, its just like shaking up a can of soda, but more complex.

When you get down to it, there is no real difference between “life” and “non-life”, and the universe is eventually going to come to some end anyway. Our sun will eventually burn out, “life” in our solar system will be impossible to exist, the universe will eventually succumb to entropy, and all will go to absolute zero.

Either this, or the universe will collapse back in on itself and there will be an new big bang, either way everything in the universe now ceases to exist.

Just face it, existance is meaningless.  LOL

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Posted: 18 October 2006 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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I would add that no religion makes the universe or life any more meaningful either.

Unless “meaning” is taken to mean continued personal existance.

Even assuming any of the various religoius stories, what then is the point of it all?

Take the Christian example, so eventually Jesus comes back and destroys the world and all the good people go to heaven and the bad people go to hell…. okay, and then what?

What is the point then?

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Posted: 18 October 2006 02:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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[quote author=“rationalrevolution”]I would add that no religion makes the universe or life any more meaningful either.

Unless “meaning” is taken to mean continued personal existance.

Even assuming any of the various religoius stories, what then is the point of it all?
Take the Christian example, so eventually Jesus comes back and destroys the world and all the good people go to heaven and the bad people go to hell…. okay, and then what?
What is the point then?

I like your honesty.
Humanity has become addicted to religion. Religious ideologies rely on a cult like mentality to imprison its followers. The way religion strangles humanity creates a sense of powerlessness that I believe is irreversible. One can no better change the mind of a fundamental Christian or a fundamental Islamic follower as you could reverse time.
There are two options; one is to promote tolerance among the different religions and encourage life over death, or two create a more reasonable alternative to the daily dogma of religions.
However, for every convert to the alternative you will also create a more intense religious follower willing to do anything to hold on to his or her faith” (Can we say Martyr?)
The trick is to convince humanity that there is nothing owed to them but a chance at life and to learn to appreciate that our overall presence on earth has more value than a belief in a supreme truth that, in all actuality, is more than likely false.

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Posted: 20 October 2006 03:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Oh, I think I see now!  You’re trying to create a more “humanistic” religion (or substitute for religion).  That sounds very fine, Entity.

I just think your ideas will prove to be a little too esoteric for the typical Christian fundamentalist.  The whole point to religion is to reassure the faithful that, in the Afterlife, they’ll be rewarded for their diligent clinging to the Faith (plus, of course, that all the people who mocked them will get it in the neck!).

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