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D.M. Murdock - The Christ Conspiracy
Posted: 29 June 2011 04:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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I don’t recall ever reading Acharya writing that

I didn’t say it was Acharya. I read it in “Constantine’s Sword”. I also saw it in a Bible that had footnotes about the archaeology that supported the stories, well supposedly supported them. That’s my point. It is fairly well known that things like the church of the holy sepulchre are not historically accurate, unless you are someone who doesn’t question things like that or doesn’t know about things like historical source documentation. The Bible that had it did not say that the archaeology of an Emperor’s relative in 330 AD is not reliable, but it is not too hard figure that out.

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Posted: 29 June 2011 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Maybe a different tact would help. Forget my generalizations, those are my opinion, you can take it or leave it. Lets look closer at things that make me go hmmm. I will stick to the source book in the link above, and just use what it says.

Pg 16, #13, “The virginity of Horus‘s mother, Isis, has been disputed, because in one myth she is portrayed as impregnating herself with Osiris‘s severed phallus.” The Jesus birth narrative has God sending angels to tell a human woman she is pregnant. It includes the trouble her boyfriend had with this. This section goes on to list some more wildly varying accounts of Horus’ birth. The 2 gospels with birth narratives don’t agree exactly, but they aren’t that different.

Pg. 15 #12 Discussion of Horus being born on the winter solstice. I don’t find any parallel in the Bible. The Bible is very unhelpful with Jesus’ birth date. The setting of that date came much later by people who had a very different agenda than the writers of the gospels. They may have had some of these ancient myths in mind, but how does that make it a conspiracy? What does that tell us?

Pg. 14 #11, A discussion of Horus and Osiris battling evil, including mention of Osiris overcoming the powers of darkness. In Genesis, God creates everything. He doesn’t have to defeat the powers of darkness. There are some odd passages that seem to say he created Satan but the Bible is mostly about people, not gods battling every night. Jesus has a moment of doubt in faith in the gospels, but only battles Satan in that very odd book of Revelations which is obviously allegory.

These are the kind of non-parrallels that bother me, that make me not interested in buying her books. Do they concern you at all? What do you make of them?
And just as a reminder, I’m not leading up to making a case for the existence of Jesus or even any value of the Bible. You don’t need to reiterate that there are parallels and that the archaeology presented is solid. I’ve already agreed to that.

(FYI I tried to reply to the yahoo post, but I’m getting some kind of PythonError)

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Posted: 29 June 2011 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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You would have to read the book to fully understand, but days get shorter in winter and Solistice is a sun celebration.  The sun sits on the Southern Cross (crux) for three days (to the naked eye) and then returns causing the days to get longer and the sun’s rays get stronger.  BTW, Samson and Delilah is a sun motif too.  Another interesting fact, which is stated in the BCP (Book of Common Prayer, Anglican) is Easter is set by the first full moon on the first Sunday after the spring Equinox, after March 21. Rules for Finding Easter  This goes into the morning sun worship on Easter Sunday.

Just goes to show there is more astro theology than most people realize or care to explore.  The Conspiracy are the various books the Church condemned as heresy and even demonized, after discarding them from cannon during a big brew-ha-ha.  I’d explain, but I don’t feel up to writing a book tonight.

Secondly, I think you are stuck on cultural symbolism.  We are talking about motifs and this various motifs were set to various cultures.  You are forgetting there are some stories in the Torah that are not in the Xian Bible.  Also, if you were to read Victor H. Matthews book, esp Parallel of the OT you would get a better understanding of the battle you are hung up on currently.  You are missing the parallels because you haven’t taken the time to learn exactly what is being discussed- such as Price’s book, Matthews, and many others.  When digs into it, like what I point to above, they will find the parallels do work and that there is a ton of solar theology.

No they do not concern me at all, because I’ve spent years studying this stuff and it works, causing all the puzzle pieces to fit together quite nicely.  It all makes sense now.

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Posted: 29 June 2011 08:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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I don’t need a lesson on the solstice, and wouldn’t one use a science book for that? I don’t understand what the disconnect is. You seem to be repeating yourself that you read it and it works for you. I feel I am providing specific examples of what my concerns are but you are not addressing them. Not sure what to do about that. I gave three examples that you could have addressed with specifics, but instead you went to generalities.

I’m glad you didn’t “write a book” because my guess is you would have said a lot of things that would not have answered my questions. I suspect that would just be frustrating. You probably do know more details about book burnings and heresies, but, at least for this discussion, I am satisfied with just knowing that they happened at all. I’m sure Acharya does a great job of exposing them, but I don’t get the sense that she talks much about the historical context of exactly who did it, what was going on at the time, who was opposing those actions at the time and other historical details that would interest me. Details that I think are important to understanding how religion functions and why it is the way it is today.

That doesn’t make her wrong, it is just not a way of looking at history that I find useful. As you say, there are motifs and motifs repeat. I don’t see why you think I don’t understand that.

you would get a better understanding of the battle you are hung up on currently.

What am I hung up on? I pointed out that the source book discusses battling gods and I don’t see a parallel of that in the Bible. If you would have sited some parallel, anything other than Revelations that would have been great. Fundamentalist talk about the battle but that is very recent. I’m really clutching for straws here, trying to figure out what you’re asking of me.

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Posted: 29 June 2011 08:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Lausten - 29 June 2011 06:49 AM

A few years ago, when Price had a Q&A podcast

Dr. Price still has his Bible Geek Q & A podcast (I assume that is the one you are referring to).  Here’s a link to it:

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/biblegeek.htm

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Posted: 29 June 2011 09:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Lausten - 29 June 2011 08:06 PM

I don’t need a lesson on the solstice, and wouldn’t one use a science book for that?

Not back then they didn’t.  It was a totally different world.  Before religion as we know it there was animism.

I don’t understand what the disconnect is. You seem to be repeating yourself that you read it and it works for you. I feel I am providing specific examples of what my concerns are but you are not addressing them. Not sure what to do about that. I gave three examples that you could have addressed with specifics, but instead you went to generalities.

I did address them, in the mind set of when religion, the human concept of it began.

I’m glad you didn’t “write a book” because my guess is you would have said a lot of things that would not have answered my questions. I suspect that would just be frustrating. You probably do know more details about book burnings and heresies, but, at least for this discussion, I am satisfied with just knowing that they happened at all. I’m sure Acharya does a great job of exposing them, but I don’t get the sense that she talks much about the historical context of exactly who did it, what was going on at the time, who was opposing those actions at the time and other historical details that would interest me. Details that I think are important to understanding how religion functions and why it is the way it is today.

You’re trying to think as a modern day rationalist and not as a superstitious cave person who didn’t know what we know now.

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Posted: 29 June 2011 09:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Freethinker23 - 29 June 2011 08:18 PM
Lausten - 29 June 2011 06:49 AM

A few years ago, when Price had a Q&A podcast

Dr. Price still has his Bible Geek Q & A podcast (I assume that is the one you are referring to).  Here’s a link to it:

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/biblegeek.htm

He could learn a lot from Bob, as well as if he picked up some of the worship books of modern myth, like the BCP.

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Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 30 June 2011 04:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Mriana - 29 June 2011 09:54 PM

You’re trying to think as a modern day rationalist and not as a superstitious cave person who didn’t know what we know now.

Well, that explains the disconnect.

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Posted: 30 June 2011 05:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Acharya mentions Helena, quoting Wells, in Christ Conspiracy, p. 80 of my edition: “‘There is not a single existing site in Jerusalem which is mentioned in connection with Christian history before 326, when Helena (Mother of Constantine) saw a cave that had just been excavated, and which was identified with Jesus’ tomb.’” As to the cross business, she is repudiating such “religious madness” of relics and sacred sites hunting when she recounts this story: “Indeed, it is reported that when Helena’s representative inquired in Jerusalem as to the ‘Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,’ no one had ever heard of him except, reputedly, one old man, who promptly showed Helena’s envoy a field of buried crucifixes, which was apparently evidence satisfactory enough for these great minds and honest characters to settle the matter, such that they claimed to have found the ‘true cross.’”

To call the mission of Helena archaeology is an insult to science.

-John F. Felix

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Quid tam fidelibus credere vult? Libet nomine appellant, assumptis nihil?

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Posted: 01 July 2011 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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Well, after reading through this response by Acharya S to professional historian Dr. Forbes, I thought it was very well done. She deserves far more credit and respect than she gets.

Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes concerning ‘Zeitgeist, Part 1’
http://truthbeknown.com/chrisforbeszeitgeist.html

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Posted: 05 July 2011 10:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Just want to update that I have continued to study this discussion and I appreciate the challenges. Much of what I wanted to express was lost in the details. I do not refute Acharya’s scholarship, it is the conclusions, the connections. It is difficult to pin those down because of her style of presenting many details about about astrology and Egyptian myth then showing parallels to the Bible then claiming a general theme. My problem with her and Price is that I rarely hear them acknowledge that it has been well known that the Bible is based on myth for a long time. By “well known”, I don’t mean commonly. But listen to this, about someone who learned about the Bible/myth connection 50 years ago (about 6 minutes in).

Deconversion 2.3

There is plenty of scholarship on how the Bible came to be. Why does Acharya not connect her work to their’s? Why does she spend so much time saying her work is unique and that the sources she finds have been hidden? Where is the peer review?

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Posted: 05 July 2011 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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An archetype is an archetype is an archetype.  Different times and different places, same old story.  Sounds like a very well organized conspiracy to me but who’s doing the driving?  All very interesting but would it stand up in a court of law? Oh, I forgot, they do that all the time… it’s enough to drive one to drink.  Communion wine anyone? 

“You guys are missing a very large boat” - Noah

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Posted: 05 July 2011 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Conspiracy is another term I would like defined. Murdock’s claim is that the Bible writers plagiarized earlier myths and lied about the miracles to gain power. Is that something we don’t know? Comments on how comparing to other gods is anathema can be found in the earliest Catholic counsels. These are the things that apologists have been responding to forever.  If your definition of conspiracy is that people lie, then there are an awful lot of conspiracies.

The second theme is that there were book and library burnings and people were not allowed to interpret the scriptures themselves. Again, in the history books. What is the conspiracy? There is no Illiminati type organization passing on the secret way to control people’s minds. The secret is out in the open, claim miracles and scare people. Each generation can choose to do that or not. It is the teaching of young people, who pass it on to their children before they are experienced enough to start questioning that keeps the myth alive. Peter Berger explains this quite well in his sociology classic, The Social Construction of Reality.

Bible stories were written for a number of reasons. The creation story may have been originally intended to be comforting, to tell people that gods did not create them as slaves, or to defeat chaos, but this one god had it all under control. That has been rewritten so many times, who knows. The Book of Ruth was written as a political piece, to convince people that they should accept their neighbors from other tribes. That Moses was based on the Aries war god may be true, but Murdock looks at each of these in isolation and completely ignores what doesn’t fit her theme. That severely diminishes her value.

For the Murdock scholars, does she ever mention the Documentary Hypothesis?

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Posted: 05 July 2011 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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gray1 - 05 July 2011 05:03 PM

An archetype is an archetype is an archetype.  Different times and different places, same old story.  Sounds like a very well organized conspiracy to me but who’s doing the driving?  All very interesting but would it stand up in a court of law? Oh, I forgot, they do that all the time… it’s enough to drive one to drink.  Communion wine anyone? 

“You guys are missing a very large boat” - Noah

Yeah, the Church has been doing it for years, yet when it comes to the Church, they seem to be above the law.

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Posted: 05 July 2011 08:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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I’ll be on the look out for her books, they look pretty interesting. Are there more books like this?

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