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Secular Opinions on Transhumanism
Posted: 08 July 2011 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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George - 08 July 2011 01:04 PM
traveler - 08 July 2011 12:46 PM
George - 08 July 2011 12:03 PM

Hmm, if cloning ever became as easy as, say, toasting a slice of bread I could see how some people could take advantage of it. But I doubt it will. The majority of people who adopt a kid don’t do it for the purpose of turning him into a sex slave and I don’t see why treating a clone would differ from the way people treat adopted or “in vitro” kids. If anything, people would probably be much more carrying while raising a clone since she would share 100% of her genes with her parent.

Ah, you’re assuming the clone is raised by the biological parents. I was not making that assumption. I pictured a (future) lab with anonymous sperm and egg supplies. I agree with what you say given your assumption.

Well, not sure where we are going with this, but I am absolutely positive there will never (!) be a surplus of female eggs in any lab to use for cloning of sex slaves. Sperm maybe, but not eggs.

Did you know it costs only a few hundred dollars to buy sperm from a sperm bank but thousands of dollars to buy an egg? (And this is just aside, but what is also interesting here that nobody will buy your sperm unless you have a degree. An egg from any woman is accepted, but en egg from a highly attractive and educated woman can sell for up to seventy thousand dollars.)

Gah, I feel horrible for tossing this in your argument, but what about artificial eggs? Carbon copying isn’t such a difficult maneuver where genetics is concerned. Certain nucleotide sequences are easy to replicate.

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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QuantumFrost - 08 July 2011 12:57 PM

While I retain a certain level of pessimism that I have acquired through life, I still see the genuine concern and sense of compassion present in what one calls an optimist. They can be deistic, atheist, or agnostic, but their concern and desire for the well-being of others is an observable trait, and they are not isolated enclaves.

I completely agree with that. But I don’t know that the percentage of those concerned with others is high enough to counter those who are not. I have raised three people from inception to productive adulthood. While I may not have influenced their behavior, I certainly did provide protection from those who would do harm. Sure, the school I sent them to and the activities they enjoyed were part of a protective community, but this presumes a very advantaged environment when compared to most of the world.

To be able to produce a “Proto” generation of advanced and far more wise humans could create the potential to increase the output of positive human traits in controlled environments, whereas most human birthing is random and creates vastly contrasting characters, while cloning could provide the platform for mastering the creation of a docile, intelligent, and healthy population to integrate with our largely aggressive “Base” population. It seems like a crappy eugenics-based “Master Race” argument, but the idea is still out there, untainted by lesser-minded individuals who seek to discriminate.

Who decides what is “advanced and far more wise”????? Lesser-minded individuals? Be careful with that one.

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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George - 08 July 2011 01:04 PM
traveler - 08 July 2011 12:46 PM
George - 08 July 2011 12:03 PM

Hmm, if cloning ever became as easy as, say, toasting a slice of bread I could see how some people could take advantage of it. But I doubt it will. The majority of people who adopt a kid don’t do it for the purpose of turning him into a sex slave and I don’t see why treating a clone would differ from the way people treat adopted or “in vitro” kids. If anything, people would probably be much more carrying while raising a clone since she would share 100% of her genes with her parent.

Ah, you’re assuming the clone is raised by the biological parents. I was not making that assumption. I pictured a (future) lab with anonymous sperm and egg supplies. I agree with what you say given your assumption.

Well, not sure where we are going with this, but I am absolutely positive there will never (!) be a surplus of female eggs in any lab to use for cloning of sex slaves. Sperm maybe, but not eggs.

Did you know it costs only a few hundred dollars to buy sperm from a sperm bank but thousands of dollars to buy an egg? (And this is just aside, but what is also interesting here that nobody will buy your sperm unless you have a degree. An egg from any woman is accepted, but en egg from a highly attractive and educated woman can sell for up to seventy thousand dollars.)

That’s the case today. That’s not necessarily the case in several or perhaps hundreds of years. I’m looking farther down the road.

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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traveler - 08 July 2011 01:08 PM
QuantumFrost - 08 July 2011 12:57 PM

While I retain a certain level of pessimism that I have acquired through life, I still see the genuine concern and sense of compassion present in what one calls an optimist. They can be deistic, atheist, or agnostic, but their concern and desire for the well-being of others is an observable trait, and they are not isolated enclaves.

I completely agree with that. But I don’t know that the percentage of those concerned with others is high enough to counter those who are not. I have raised three people from inception to productive adulthood. While I may not have influenced their behavior, I certainly did provide protection from those who would do harm. Sure, the school I sent them to and the activities they enjoyed were part of a protective community, but this presumes a very advantaged environment when compared to most of the world.

To be able to produce a “Proto” generation of advanced and far more wise humans could create the potential to increase the output of positive human traits in controlled environments, whereas most human birthing is random and creates vastly contrasting characters, while cloning could provide the platform for mastering the creation of a docile, intelligent, and healthy population to integrate with our largely aggressive “Base” population. It seems like a crappy eugenics-based “Master Race” argument, but the idea is still out there, untainted by lesser-minded individuals who seek to discriminate.

Who decides what is “advanced and far more wise”????? Lesser-minded individuals? Be careful with that one.

Re. 1 “Variables”

Then have societies fostering productive environments place an initiative on such a program.

Re. 2 “Eugenics”

Advanced and far more wise. When I say such I tend to make the point of individuals who are far more adept at absorbing information, and can have an equal balance in using the full potential of their intellectual abilities. When I indicate “Lesser-minded”, I point towards individuals who show a level of ignorance/discrimination towards others. Tolerance is a beneficial trait, whereas I am saying that discriminatory and illogical people desire objectives trivial/harmful to others.

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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QuantumFrost - 08 July 2011 01:13 PM

Re. 1 “Variables”

Then have societies fostering productive environments place an initiative on such a program.

If that were feasible, wouldn’t we already have such societies? I think you are overestimating current cultures -  but I hope like hell I’m wrong.

Re. 2 “Eugenics”

Advanced and far more wise. When I say such I tend to make the point of individuals who are far more adept at absorbing information, and can have an equal balance in using the full potential of their intellectual abilities. When I indicate “Lesser-minded”, I point towards individuals who show a level of ignorance/discrimination towards others. Tolerance is a beneficial trait, whereas I am saying that discriminatory and illogical people desire objectives trivial/harmful to others.

IMO, tolerance is a beneficial trait. But what you really want is the combination of “more advanced and wise” plus “not lesser-minded.” One without the other is not going to work. I suspect you could find such people today without the need for cloning. Perhaps that would be a good experiment.

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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traveler - 08 July 2011 01:19 PM
QuantumFrost - 08 July 2011 01:13 PM

Re. 1 “Variables”

Then have societies fostering productive environments place an initiative on such a program.

If that were feasible, wouldn’t we already have such societies? I think you are overestimating current cultures -  but I hope like hell I’m wrong.

Re. 2 “Eugenics”

Advanced and far more wise. When I say such I tend to make the point of individuals who are far more adept at absorbing information, and can have an equal balance in using the full potential of their intellectual abilities. When I indicate “Lesser-minded”, I point towards individuals who show a level of ignorance/discrimination towards others. Tolerance is a beneficial trait, whereas I am saying that discriminatory and illogical people desire objectives trivial/harmful to others.

IMO, tolerance is a beneficial trait. But what you really want is the combination of “more advanced and wise” plus “not lesser-minded.” One without the other is not going to work. I suspect you could find such people today without the need for cloning. Perhaps that would be a good experiment.

But there lies my point. Wouldn’t it be worth it to create an environment dedicated to the replication of their exemplary potential? To merge such individuals with mainstream society could provide interesting, but I’d be sure to say beneficial, observations/fluctuations in society. While I also understand your distrust of current society to adopt a more pragmatic, benevolent role in advancing humanity, it is possible. Again, we are reduced to the waiting game. Then the variables to account for…....so much paperwork….....:(

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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QuantumFrost - 08 July 2011 01:24 PM

But there lies my point. Wouldn’t it be worth it to create an environment dedicated to the replication of their exemplary potential? To merge such individuals with mainstream society could provide interesting, but I’d be sure to say beneficial, observations/fluctuations in society. While I also understand your distrust of current society to adopt a more pragmatic, benevolent role in advancing humanity, it is possible. Again, we are reduced to the waiting game. Then the variables to account for…....so much paperwork….....:(

I agree! I also have to confess that I’m having a hard time believing you are not an old fart like me.  LOL

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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traveler - 08 July 2011 01:27 PM
QuantumFrost - 08 July 2011 01:24 PM

But there lies my point. Wouldn’t it be worth it to create an environment dedicated to the replication of their exemplary potential? To merge such individuals with mainstream society could provide interesting, but I’d be sure to say beneficial, observations/fluctuations in society. While I also understand your distrust of current society to adopt a more pragmatic, benevolent role in advancing humanity, it is possible. Again, we are reduced to the waiting game. Then the variables to account for…....so much paperwork….....:(

I agree! I also have to confess that I’m having a hard time believing you are not an old fart like me.  LOL

Hehe, consensus! Huzzah!

Regarding my age, I tend to get that quite a bit. It’s so frustrating finding intellectuals in a period of time where you are surrounded by others dedicated to…..........“different” pursuits.

Well then, I suppose this thread has reached it’s climax. Thanks for the opinions, Traveler/George.

[ Edited: 08 July 2011 01:40 PM by QuantumFrost ]
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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Anybody who argues for the benefits of eugenics doesn’t know what they are talking about. We can say today that X trait is beneficial for whatever reason, but we must not forget that tomorrow’s environment may see the same trait as a maladaptation. People who think they know which traits will be advantageous tomorrow don’t fully understand evolution.

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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George - 08 July 2011 01:39 PM

Anybody who argues for the benefits of eugenics doesn’t know what they are talking about. We can say today that X trait is beneficial for whatever reason, but we must not forget that tomorrow’s environment may see the same trait as a maladaptation. People who think they know which traits will be advantageous tomorrow don’t fully understand evolution.

I believe in some proportion of what you just said, but I also argue that base traits that are obviously beneficial can’t be ignored. The ability to absorb and process information, as well as heighten cognitive prowess is impossible to declare useless in any certain environ. To say that mental fortitude is invalid in the arctic but not in the desert is madness.

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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George - 08 July 2011 01:39 PM

Anybody who argues for the benefits of eugenics doesn’t know what they are talking about. We can say today that X trait is beneficial for whatever reason, but we must not forget that tomorrow’s environment may see the same trait as a maladaptation. People who think they know which traits will be advantageous tomorrow don’t fully understand evolution.

True excaim

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Physical necessity does not belittle mental necessity.

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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QuantumFrost - 08 July 2011 01:42 PM

To say that mental fortitude is invalid in the arctic but not in the desert is madness.

I would obviously never argue for anything this silly, but it seems obvious that intelligence correlates with lower birth rate. Low birth rate below the replacement rate seems (at least to me) a sign of organism not being successfully adapted to its environment.

[ Edited: 08 July 2011 02:01 PM by George ]
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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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The history of eugenics is deplorable because it sought to subtract.

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Posted: 08 July 2011 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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George - 08 July 2011 01:55 PM
QuantumFrost - 08 July 2011 01:42 PM

To say that mental fortitude is invalid in the arctic but not in the desert is madness.

I would obviously never argue for anything this silly, but it seems obvious that intelligence correlates with lower birth rate. Low birth rate bellow the replacement rate seems (at least to me) a sign of organism not being successfully adopted to its environment.

Which is why genetic manipulation could stimulate a change in that trend. It is never going to be inherently “Bad” to be smart, or inherently “Dumb” to procreate more often than formulate. To strike a balance would not only dissolve any qualms over population figures, but it would also integrate greater reasoning into the vast current gene pool.

Artificial Selection, through genetic manipulation.

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