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911: Religion did this
Posted: 14 September 2011 08:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Cloak - 14 September 2011 08:15 PM
mid atlantic - 14 September 2011 07:42 PM

I can strongly agree!  Christianity in the USA, and Christianity in Syria are different, Christianity in Arkansas is different than Christianity in Maine. Secularism is different in Latvia compared to here; obviously, nothing is monolithic (or at least very little is).

That’s my thing. I feel that the true battle is not against religion per se, but against cultural mindsets. Most of the Muslims born here and influenced by American or European culture are much more likely to adopt a more peaceful interpretation of the Koran, as we see right now. Personally, I could care less if my neighbor wants to be a Muslim. But if, all of a sudden, he started spending a lot of time with a group of Afghanis or Pakistanis who were “just visiting the States for a short while”, I would start to get a little nervous, and reasonably so. My fear could turn out to be unfounded, but at the same time, they could also be extremists who are trying to persuade my neighbor to join their cause. I hate that we have to live like that, but I’m just being honest. I’ve got a wife and two girls, and I can’t afford to not be vigilant.

But I’m starting to ramble….

During the Balkan wars in the ‘90s, some Muslim fighters from the Mideast and South Asia took it upon themselves to go to Europe and fight along side the Bosnian Muslims, in the sense that they were Islamic “brothers in arms”. The Bosnians rejected the Asians fanatacism for the most part; an example was during the Christmas period, the Mujahideen were offended by the Balkaner’s love of alcohol and pork and winter celebrations, and they demanded it all be stopped for the sake of Islamic decency.  The Bosniak’s got mad and started threatening them.  The cultural mindset differences between them seemed to trump a shared faith.

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Posted: 14 September 2011 09:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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mid atlantic - 14 September 2011 08:46 PM
Cloak - 14 September 2011 08:15 PM
mid atlantic - 14 September 2011 07:42 PM

I can strongly agree!  Christianity in the USA, and Christianity in Syria are different, Christianity in Arkansas is different than Christianity in Maine. Secularism is different in Latvia compared to here; obviously, nothing is monolithic (or at least very little is).

That’s my thing. I feel that the true battle is not against religion per se, but against cultural mindsets. Most of the Muslims born here and influenced by American or European culture are much more likely to adopt a more peaceful interpretation of the Koran, as we see right now. Personally, I could care less if my neighbor wants to be a Muslim. But if, all of a sudden, he started spending a lot of time with a group of Afghanis or Pakistanis who were “just visiting the States for a short while”, I would start to get a little nervous, and reasonably so. My fear could turn out to be unfounded, but at the same time, they could also be extremists who are trying to persuade my neighbor to join their cause. I hate that we have to live like that, but I’m just being honest. I’ve got a wife and two girls, and I can’t afford to not be vigilant.

But I’m starting to ramble….

During the Balkan wars in the ‘90s, some Muslim fighters from the Mideast and South Asia took it upon themselves to go to Europe and fight along side the Bosnian Muslims, in the sense that they were Islamic “brothers in arms”. The Bosnians rejected the Asians fanatacism for the most part; an example was during the Christmas period, the Mujahideen were offended by the Balkaner’s love of alcohol and pork and winter celebrations, and they demanded it all be stopped for the sake of Islamic decency.  The Bosniak’s got mad and started threatening them.  The cultural mindset differences between them seemed to trump a shared faith.

Unfortunately, us Americans and Europeans aren’t always that lucky. Sometimes they succeed in radicalizing one of our Muslims, which is why so many Americans are scared of the Muslim society.

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Posted: 15 September 2011 04:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Cloak - 14 September 2011 08:15 PM
mid atlantic - 14 September 2011 07:42 PM

I can strongly agree!  Christianity in the USA, and Christianity in Syria are different, Christianity in Arkansas is different than Christianity in Maine. Secularism is different in Latvia compared to here; obviously, nothing is monolithic (or at least very little is).

That’s my thing. I feel that the true battle is not against religion per se, but against cultural mindsets. Most of the Muslims born here and influenced by American or European culture are much more likely to adopt a more peaceful interpretation of the Koran, as we see right now. Personally, I could care less if my neighbor wants to be a Muslim. But if, all of a sudden, he started spending a lot of time with a group of Afghanis or Pakistanis who were “just visiting the States for a short while”, I would start to get a little nervous, and reasonably so. My fear could turn out to be unfounded, but at the same time, they could also be extremists who are trying to persuade my neighbor to join their cause. I hate that we have to live like that, but I’m just being honest. I’ve got a wife and two girls, and I can’t afford to not be vigilant.

But I’m starting to ramble….

That could be the point of the thread, cultural mindset, those of the mind wanting to do harm to others to advance their interpretation of religion.

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Posted: 15 September 2011 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Nelson - 11 September 2011 06:04 PM

911: Religion did this

I saw a middle-aged man on the subway yesterday who, by his dress, was clearly a Muslim. This was September 10, 2011 — one day before the 10th anniversary of 911.

I wondered what it feels like to be a Muslim in the United States on the anniversary of 911. Do they feel shame, knowing that the terrorists who killed nearly 3,000 people in the attack on the World Trade Center got their justification, if not motivation, from the same holy books as they read? Do they feel any ownership? Do they take any responsibility?

I hope they do. Many of those Muslims who eschew violence as a means of jihad managed somehow, through some fairly creative cognitive dissonance, to refuse to accept that fellow Muslims could have done something so evil, so they blamed it on some shadowy cabal involving George W. Bush and the Jews.

Muslims need to own what happened on 911 because an adherence to radical Islam was the one thing that the terrorists had in common. A religious doctrine has no force if it is not accepted and followed by large numbers of people. And it was a particular religious doctrine — Islam — that provided the fuel and the spark for 911, not to mention other atrocities against non-Muslims and Muslims alike (the stoning of women accused of adultery in places like Iran, for example).

Aman Ali writes a very good piece about how American Muslims feel about the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon: Muslims should stop apologizing for 9/11.

I can sympathize with someone who must constantly apologize for the crazies within his religion. But without the religion, there would be a lot fewer crazies because it is the religion itself that gives thempermission for all manner of barbarism and perversity.

I do not buy the argument that a member of a religion that perpetuates atrocities gets to absolve himself from the actions of a minority within his faith. They may sing in different keys, but they are reading from the same hymnal (or sura, as the case may be). They may have different interpretations, but it is still the word of their God they are interpreting.

I say that someone who wants to truly absolve himself from the craziness of religion has to abandon the religion altogether, not try to isolate himself from the ones within his faith that somehow have misinterpreted the words of God and his prophets.

Ali enjoins us to pick up the Koran, if we want evidence that it doesn’t condone terrorism. OK. Explain this:

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (At-Tauba, 29).

If you hate the West and are looking in the Koran or Haith for a justification to kill infidels, you can find it.

I know there are Christians, Jews and Muslims who say that agnostics and atheists like me must likewise take responsibility for the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin, since both were atheists. But there is no atheist doctrine, no scripture that orders us to stone adulterers and homosexuals, or murder Jews. Those are the kinds of brutal dictates that can only come from scripture. And even a casual reading of the Koran or Old Testament clearly shows that it is OK to, say, kill children for disobeying their parents, stone homosexuals, and wage war against those who do not follow your particular brand of religion.

I don’t accept the revisionist approach that allows adherents to redact the more barbaric passages of a religion on the basis that it is now historically irrelevant. If God said that it is required to murder a child for disobeying his parents, then that’s God’s law. Don’t tell, ‘Oh, well, that was written a long time ago, and things have changed.’” Was God mistaken? Or were his prophets?

You can’t have it both ways. If you accept that scripture is the infallible word of God, you don’t get to cherry pick from it and disavow those barbarisms which may no longer seem acceptable in a civilized world. It’s the word of God, is’t it? All of it, not just some of it.And if some of it is wrong, then all of it must be wrong.

As Christopher Hitchens has said, “religion poisons everything.” The antidote is not to try to water down the religion and sanitize it; the antidote is to reject it entirely.

But I can see where a Muslim might be reluctant to reject Islam outright. After all, in many Islamic countries, the punishment for apostacy is death.

Nelson Bennett
Vancouver, B.C.

 

good post Nelson,

Several 9/11 terrorist trained in Venice Fl and while doing so lead the life-style of a drunken sailor on shore leave. A couple of them spoke of marrying strippers. BTW, they still have an unpaid bar tab. What do you imagine of those who trained these guy’s to fly? I wonder what they feel on each 9/11 anniversary?

I agree that Muslim’s need to “own” of what happened, especially those who reside in the States. Did any of them sound off this past 9/11 in degrading or admonishing radical Islam? I don’t know if they had or not, I’m lacking in TV entertainment, by choice. The only thing I read was where CAIR was concerned about anti-Muslim incidents. And that the U S governments National Endowment of the Humanities gave 40 grand to CAIR to have a Manhattan Children’s Museum.

No, I don’t know of an Atheist doctrine that says to go and kill the Christian, Jew or Muslim. But I don’t think Atheism is a religion, is it? (I once thought it was until I came to this board). But we Americans have a mighty force, which many Atheist are in part, that sure have killed a bunch of Muslim’s in the past ten years, (not so many Jews or Christians however).  Many of those dead Muslim’s had nothing to do with 9/11, ( oh well. let god sort them out).

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Posted: 15 September 2011 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Nelson - 11 September 2011 06:04 PM

I know there are Christians, Jews and Muslims who say that agnostics and atheists like me must likewise take responsibility for the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin, since both were atheists.

Hitler was not and atheist.  Atheists do not make their soldiers wear belt buckles inscribed with “God with us.”

buckle.jpeg

Atheists do not make deals with the Vatican that they and their preists will be in charge of education.
concordat.jpg

If he had been an atheist, would he appoint someone to the position of “Reichbishop”?
b5-bex1-4739.jpg

Hitler was a Roman Catholic
hitler_cardinal4.jpg

http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
http://ahquotes.tripod.com/

That of course, does not mean that Roman Catholics are Nazis.  After all, the Reichbishop was actually Lutheran, so the Nazis had plenty of Protestants on board too.  Some say that Hitler was actually inspired by Martin Luther too.

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Posted: 16 September 2011 06:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Hey, Tradition, I agree with you and all, but is it just me or does that last picture of Hitler look like he was Photoshopped in? Just curious…

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Posted: 16 September 2011 06:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Cloak - 16 September 2011 06:11 AM

Hey, Tradition, I agree with you and all, but is it just me or does that last picture of Hitler look like he was Photoshopped in? Just curious…

Hard to tell. Photos these days can be manipulated so perfectly that it’s practically impossible to tell if any adjustments have been made. At other times pictures may look fake even though nothing has been done to them. I suspect this is the case here. The source of light seems to be coming from the direction of the photographer and all persons in the photo appear to correctly reflect this. There is a weird dark outline around Hitler’s back but anybody who would have faked this photo would surely correct this. I think it’s real.

Also, I doubt Hitler was a theist, but that’s just my opinion. Politicians lie and often pretend to be affiliated with the church for obvious reasons.

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Posted: 16 September 2011 06:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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I agree with George. Also, that black line appears to be a strap that some are wearing over their right shoulders.

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Posted: 16 September 2011 07:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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The black strap is a sword belt called by the U.S. military a “Sam Brown” belt. Hitler mentions in several places in his bio. Mein Kampf that he is fulfilling God’s plan of eliminating Jewish influence. He probably used the usual Christian prejudice to his own advantage. And yes, each Wehrmacht soldier’s belt buckle is inscribed with the words “GOTT MITT UNS” God is with us.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 16 September 2011 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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thevillageathiest - 16 September 2011 07:50 AM

Hitler mentions in several places in his bio. Mein Kampf that he is fulfilling God’s plan of eliminating Jewish influence.

Yeah well, not to sound too cynical but if I were to write a book to help me conquer the world it would have God in every paragraph. Try to think like a politician.

[ Edited: 16 September 2011 08:30 AM by George ]
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Posted: 16 September 2011 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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ole Hitler maybe not a atheist but he sure was no Catholic in adult life. Mommy may have taken him to mass a few times, but as an adult He was more inline with Ariosophy, hence the swastika symbol being used. I didn’t see in the pics of soldiers wearing a RC cross.

“God is with us” can mean many things, it may be just me of course, but I do not believe that the slogan meant the RC god.

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Posted: 16 September 2011 08:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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mid atlantic - 14 September 2011 07:42 PM

Christianity in the USA, and Christianity in Syria are different, Christianity in Arkansas is different than Christianity in Maine. Secularism is different in Latvia compared to here; obviously, nothing is monolithic (or at least very little is).

And physics is incapable of giving a damn about any of them

I suppose physics is secular but does not care.  LOL

Does this mean we need Vulcan mono-culturalism?

psik

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Posted: 16 September 2011 09:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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George - 16 September 2011 08:22 AM
thevillageathiest - 16 September 2011 07:50 AM

Hitler mentions in several places in his bio. Mein Kampf that he is fulfilling God’s plan of eliminating Jewish influence.

Yeah well, not to sound too cynical but if I were to write a book to help me conquer the world it would have God in every paragraph. Try to think like a politician.

Exactly, governments prefer subliminal stimuli in passively controlling the masses. And too, it really helps in collecting big $$ in campaign donations, and it is one heck of a closing statement, “God bless America !”, (or whatever country). 

But the ACLU and others want to redact ole God from government use and purge it from civil society altogether. If that happens, what can be used as an alternative? Science Bless America! that doesn’t have a ring to it. And it would cause for much smaller donations.

[ Edited: 16 September 2011 09:06 AM by ohio204 ]
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Posted: 16 September 2011 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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ohio204 - 16 September 2011 09:04 AM

But the ACLU and others want to redact ole God from government use and purge it from civil society altogether.

Where do you get the idea that the ACLU wants to “redact God from civil society altogether”?

Which other organizations do you believe want to do that?

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Posted: 16 September 2011 09:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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dougsmith - 16 September 2011 09:07 AM
ohio204 - 16 September 2011 09:04 AM

But the ACLU and others want to redact ole God from government use and purge it from civil society altogether.

Where do you get the idea that the ACLU wants to “redact God from civil society altogether”?

Which other organizations do you believe want to do that?

Why do you ask, why not just post a rebuttal? To me your questions have obvious answers.

ACLU and the Pledge of Allegiance, “One Nation under God”  to name one.

...to foster a secular society, CFI mission statement, two of the three goals: 1. an end to the influence that religion and pseudoscience have on public policy
2. an end to the privileged position that religion and pseudoscience continue to enjoy in many societies

I’m guessing you will give me a new definition for “redact” or point out that I used the word incorrectly.

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