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911: Religion did this
Posted: 01 March 2013 10:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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CuthbertJ - 01 March 2013 07:36 PM

I’m guessing you’re a male, drive a car, and have a great high paying job, don’t need a guardian wherever you go, and you enjoy voting. Yep, very prosperous.

You beat me to it…just what I was going to point out.

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Posted: 01 March 2013 10:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Granted there is no country in which shariah is fully implemented.

And shariah shouldn’t be implemented anywhere…EVER….Period.

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Posted: 02 March 2013 05:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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It should be pointed out that scholars who study the effects of shariah law claim that Saudi Arabia is unique in having a low crime rate and that the political and economic make up of the country contributes to the crime rate statistics. also that Saudi Arabia has no constitution and the state is run as a virtual monarchy with police power when needed. As to Koranic law from which the civil laws are derived, the complete subjugation of women, outlawing homosexuality, handing out death sentences for apostates, stifling criticism of religion, and draconian punishments for lesser crimes doesn’t sound very much like a paradise to me. It sounds like the agenda of the Taliban. Islamic countries have a poor human rights record.  Religion and politics are oil and water. They don’t mix well.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 02 March 2013 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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I am not so sure religion has much to do with this. I often wonder about the pros and cons of dictatorship and democracy. Both countries I had lived in before coming to Canada, the Czech R. and Spain, were much safer places when they were under communism and Franco, respectively. People didn’t have much freedom but they felt safe. Putin once said that Russia is not ready for democracy and I believe he is right.

One more thing that probably plays a role here is the incoming of immigrants once you get rid of dictatorship. If you get robbed in Prague today, it will most likely be by a Russian or a Ukrainian. Multiculturalism seldom leads to prosperity and under dictatorship it is much easier to control immigration.

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Posted: 02 March 2013 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Under a dictatorship, crime is very easy to control by the simple expediant of lopping off the heads of or shooting, gassing, electrocuting or hanging every offender you catch.

Very effective, 0.0% rate of racividism, and a number of countries have worked it that way, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

Switzerland I would also point out is extremely low crime and also very secular.

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Posted: 02 March 2013 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 02 March 2013 08:44 AM

I would also point out is extremely low crime and also very secular.

Yeah, but Switzerland doesn’t have low crime because it’s secular. Switzerland has low crime and is secular because its people are intelligent and non-violent.

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Posted: 02 March 2013 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Nelson - 11 September 2011 06:04 PM

911: Religion did this

I saw a middle-aged man on the subway yesterday who, by his dress, was clearly a Muslim. This was September 10, 2011 — one day before the 10th anniversary of 911.

I wondered what it feels like to be a Muslim in the United States on the anniversary of 911. Do they feel shame, knowing that the terrorists who killed nearly 3,000 people in the attack on the World Trade Center got their justification, if not motivation, from the same holy books as they read? Do they feel any ownership? Do they take any responsibility?

I hope they do. Many of those Muslims who eschew violence as a means of jihad managed somehow, through some fairly creative cognitive dissonance, to refuse to accept that fellow Muslims could have done something so evil, so they blamed it on some shadowy cabal involving George W. Bush and the Jews.

Muslims need to own what happened on 911 because an adherence to radical Islam was the one thing that the terrorists had in common. A religious doctrine has no force if it is not accepted and followed by large numbers of people. And it was a particular religious doctrine — Islam — that provided the fuel and the spark for 911, not to mention other atrocities against non-Muslims and Muslims alike (the stoning of women accused of adultery in places like Iran, for example).

Aman Ali writes a very good piece about how American Muslims feel about the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon: Muslims should stop apologizing for 9/11.

I can sympathize with someone who must constantly apologize for the crazies within his religion. But without the religion, there would be a lot fewer crazies because it is the religion itself that gives thempermission for all manner of barbarism and perversity.

I do not buy the argument that a member of a religion that perpetuates atrocities gets to absolve himself from the actions of a minority within his faith. They may sing in different keys, but they are reading from the same hymnal (or sura, as the case may be). They may have different interpretations, but it is still the word of their God they are interpreting.

I say that someone who wants to truly absolve himself from the craziness of religion has to abandon the religion altogether, not try to isolate himself from the ones within his faith that somehow have misinterpreted the words of God and his prophets.

Ali enjoins us to pick up the Koran, if we want evidence that it doesn’t condone terrorism. OK. Explain this:

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (At-Tauba, 29).

If you hate the West and are looking in the Koran or Haith for a justification to kill infidels, you can find it.

I know there are Christians, Jews and Muslims who say that agnostics and atheists like me must likewise take responsibility for the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin, since both were atheists. But there is no atheist doctrine, no scripture that orders us to stone adulterers and homosexuals, or murder Jews. Those are the kinds of brutal dictates that can only come from scripture. And even a casual reading of the Koran or Old Testament clearly shows that it is OK to, say, kill children for disobeying their parents, stone homosexuals, and wage war against those who do not follow your particular brand of religion.

I don’t accept the revisionist approach that allows adherents to redact the more barbaric passages of a religion on the basis that it is now historically irrelevant. If God said that it is required to murder a child for disobeying his parents, then that’s God’s law. Don’t tell, ‘Oh, well, that was written a long time ago, and things have changed.’” Was God mistaken? Or were his prophets?

You can’t have it both ways. If you accept that scripture is the infallible word of God, you don’t get to cherry pick from it and disavow those barbarisms which may no longer seem acceptable in a civilized world. It’s the word of God, is’t it? All of it, not just some of it.And if some of it is wrong, then all of it must be wrong.

As Christopher Hitchens has said, “religion poisons everything.” The antidote is not to try to water down the religion and sanitize it; the antidote is to reject it entirely.

But I can see where a Muslim might be reluctant to reject Islam outright. After all, in many Islamic countries, the punishment for apostacy is death.

Nelson Bennett

Vancouver, B.C.

 

It probably works for Muslims the same way it works for Christians when the Inquisition or the Crusades or more modern Christian horrors come up. Everyone has a way of disregarding history when it suits their world view. It’s a survival mechanism.

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Posted: 02 March 2013 10:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 02 March 2013 08:44 AM

Under a dictatorship, crime is very easy to control by the simple expediant of lopping off the heads of or shooting, gassing, electrocuting or hanging every offender you catch.


Very effective, 0.0% rate of racividism, and a number of countries have worked it that way, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

Switzerland I would also point out is extremely low crime and also very secular.


Or by not admitting the existence of millions of crimes.  And, of course, one of the crimes they won’t count is the crime of a police state.

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Posted: 02 March 2013 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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George - 02 March 2013 09:41 AM
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 02 March 2013 08:44 AM

I would also point out is extremely low crime and also very secular.

Yeah, but Switzerland doesn’t have low crime because it’s secular. Switzerland has low crime and is secular because its people are intelligent and non-violent.

Which comes from years of being a secular state.  You won’t find that result in a dictatorship, ever.

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Posted: 02 March 2013 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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Yeah, but Switzerland doesn’t have low crime because it’s secular. Switzerland has low crime and is secular because its people are intelligent and non-violent.


The same with Sweden. low crime statistics and incidences of violence, and it too is considered a secular community. However with increases immigration, gang activity has risen slightly and car theft is on the rise. Also, tourists are cautioned to watch for petty thieves. Other that it’s still a safe place to live.


https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=12338

 

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 02 March 2013 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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I am not so sure religion has much to do with this. I often wonder about the pros and cons of dictatorship and democracy. Both countries I had lived in before coming to Canada, the Czech R. and Spain, were much safer places when they were under communism and Franco, respectively. People didn’t have much freedom but they felt safe. Putin once said that Russia is not ready for democracy and I believe he is right.


In reference to Saudi Arabia, that was my point George. There are other factors beside religion that come into play such as the political make up of the country and it’s economic background. And why not feel safe in a police state if you obey the laws, pay your share of the taxes and vote for the pre-chosen communist/fascist leader all the time watching what you say, print or blog? I agree that you can’t just switch from one form of government to another overnight, e,g. The Stalinization of the Soviet Union cost the Russians 20 million lives so Putin may be correct there. The impression I had though was that Gorbachev was the transition man. Maybe not.


Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 02 March 2013 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 02 March 2013 11:01 AM

Yeah, but Switzerland doesn’t have low crime because it’s secular. Switzerland has low crime and is secular because its people are intelligent and non-violent.


The same with Sweden. low crime statistics and incidences of violence, and it too is considered a secular community. However with increases immigration, gang activity has risen slightly and car theft is on the rise. Also, tourists are cautioned to watch for petty thieves. Other that it’s still a safe place to live.


https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=12338

 

Cap’t Jack

Which proves that humans are affected by their experience and environment rather than free will, and it takes time for new experiences and environments to affect human activities. Meanwhile, their actions and decisions are driven by their old experiences and environment.

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Posted: 02 March 2013 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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Yeah, but Switzerland doesn’t have low crime because it’s secular. Switzerland has low crime and is secular because its people are intelligent and non-violent.

This may be true, but it misses the point. The assertion on the table, explicit and/or implied, is that the Muslim states are crime free because they’re religious. A classic example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I was able to show an example of a completely secular state which has done just as well…and without public executions.

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Posted: 03 March 2013 07:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 02 March 2013 09:05 PM

Yeah, but Switzerland doesn’t have low crime because it’s secular. Switzerland has low crime and is secular because its people are intelligent and non-violent.

This may be true, but it misses the point. The assertion on the table, explicit and/or implied, is that the Muslim states are crime free because they’re religious. A classic example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I was able to show an example of a completely secular state which has done just as well…and without public executions.

Again, Switzerland is not Saudi Arabia. If you are saying that some countries can have low crime without some form of dictatorship, be it religious or fascist, then we agree. But I disagree that every country would do as well as Switzerland if they became a democracy.

And as I already mentioned before in another thread, religion probably played an important role resulting in Europe having low crime. The prohibition of cousin marriage by the Catholic Church got rid of closely related family tribes, which allowed Europens to behave more altruistically towards a larger population.

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Posted: 03 March 2013 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Again, Switzerland is not Saudi Arabia. If you are saying that some countries can have low crime without some form of dictatorship, be it religious or fascist, then we agree.

So far so good.

But I disagree that every country would do as well as Switzerland if they became a democracy.

Which is not what I’m saying at all. What I take issue with is the implication that a given society is low crime or crime free specifically because of religion, and the implication that something along the lines of religious law is needed to keep it that way.

And as I already mentioned before in another thread, religion probably played an important role resulting in Europe having low crime.

Maybe but I doubt the assocciation is a good one. It looks to me like a decline in some European crime rates happened in spite of relgion and not because of it, and at that only within the past century or so.

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