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911: Religion did this
Posted: 03 March 2013 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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Well, do you care to elaborate here and tell why you feel that way? If you have a theory on how it happened, let’s hear it. You don’t need to keep repeating you disagree with me on this or that, but rather show me where and why I am wrong and how and what you think actually happened. Saying that crime declined in spite of religion is like saying that you understand the germ theory because people get sick. So far you have explained nothing.

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Posted: 03 March 2013 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 02 March 2013 09:05 PM

Yeah, but Switzerland doesn’t have low crime because it’s secular. Switzerland has low crime and is secular because its people are intelligent and non-violent.

This may be true, but it misses the point. The assertion on the table, explicit and/or implied, is that the Muslim states are crime free because they’re religious. A classic example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I was able to show an example of a completely secular state which has done just as well…and without public executions.

Any dictatorship can appear to have a low crime rate because the crimes are almost all underground, the dictatorship is loathe to publicize its known crime rate and many people are frightened into submission when they can’t be sure how the government will react to a perceived crime.  There is a great deal of corruption in a dictatorship and valid information is kept out of the hands of the populace. That doesn’t stop crime, it drives it further underground.  That way the dictators can think they look good to the rest of the world and butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths. Soviet Russia was a perfect example of this phenomenon.  The leaderscclaimed low crime rates for years yet Soviet Russia was seething with crime which spread to many other countries when Communism fell.

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Posted: 03 March 2013 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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Well, do you care to elaborate here and tell why you feel that way?

George, please take note of what I said: ‘Maybe but I doubt the assocciation is a good one. It looks to me like a decline in some European crime rates happened in spite of relgion and not because of it, and at that only within the past century or so. “

I’m not throwing out anything definitive. The thing is, there is no evidence that European crime rates were all that low to begin with at least not until recently. Anything else is going to be very hard to pin down because statistical tools such as a central record of uniform crime statistics is also a fairly recent development. Still, do you think it was especially safe to travel anywhere in the Middle Ages or even the Rennissance?

It wasn’t, and there was no lack of piety to be found anywhere.

Beyond that, you’re still missing the point I’m trying to make, which is very simple.

The assertion on the table is that religion = Low crime.

It doesn’t. Never really did.

This isn’t hard.

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Posted: 06 March 2013 04:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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Thevillageatheist - 02 March 2013 11:01 AM

Yeah, but Switzerland doesn’t have low crime because it’s secular. Switzerland has low crime and is secular because its people are intelligent and non-violent.


The same with Sweden. low crime statistics and incidences of violence, and it too is considered a secular community. However with increases immigration, gang activity has risen slightly and car theft is on the rise. Also, tourists are cautioned to watch for petty thieves. Other that it’s still a safe place to live.


https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=12338

 

Cap’t Jack

Switzerland I would also point out is extremely low crime and also very secular.


I like how you use scholarly references Thevillageatheist.
However, there is one problem with these facts.
The book I used,  Transnational and Comparative criminology,   has an entire chart comparing the crime of 25 countries on page 95.

In this chart, Saudi Arabia crime rate is less than 5% of both sweden and switzerland

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Posted: 06 March 2013 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 02 March 2013 08:44 AM

Under a dictatorship, crime is very easy to control by the simple expediant of lopping off the heads of or shooting, gassing, electrocuting or hanging every offender you catch.

Very effective, 0.0% rate of racividism, and a number of countries have worked it that way, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

 

The quote i gave stated

After…the implementation of Shariah law throughout the country, crime rates decreased dramatically while apparent feelings of personal safety and social order improved (Mourad, 1980 pp504-14) Other studies broadly support these conclusions. (Basha, 1979; Basanawi, 1984)

Comparative conducted by Western criminologists are largely consistent with the conclusions….
Adler (1983) lists Saudi Arabia among her 10 low crime rate nations.
These studies are in accord with the overall high sense of security and personal safety among Saudi citizens.(El-Sendiony, 1981)

On page 96, the book also states



This view appears to be shared by ordinary people in the kingdom….“Saudis credit the sharia with their low rate…”

Thevillageatheist - 02 March 2013 05:32 AM

As to Koranic law from which the civil laws are derived…. It sounds like the agenda of the Taliban. Islamic countries have a poor human rights record.  Religion and politics are oil and water. They don’t mix well.

Cap’t Jack


In my post I said

Former CIA agent Phillip Giraldi mentions.

          There are more than 50 predominantly Muslim countries in the world, and, while most have elements of Shariah in their civil and family law, only two have it as their
          criminal codes. They are Saudi Arabia and Iran
          http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/

 

Scholar Sakeena Abdulraheem agrees with me (she is a woman):

“Muslim” countries but do not necessarily abide by the rights of women according to the teachings of Islam. This can be found in many countries throughout the world Muslim majority and non-Muslim majority one can find injustices throughout the world. What is important to keep in mind… is that all of the characteristics of the people you have encountered and the behaviors you have mentioned are not condoned or match the values and worldview, or capture the essence of Islam.
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-counselor/adapting-to-life-in-a-new-country/456446-depression-in-a-new-country.html


Correlation does not imply causation

If you want to disagree, then I think you may want to consider the heavy influence of secular laws in these countries.

For example
Phillip Giraldi mentions

The countries that do not have Shariah as their criminal codes have modeled their laws on European and American models, some borrowing from Roman law and others from British common law.
http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/

Now is secularism to be blamed for the depressing of Muslim countries. Of course not.
Similarly, you cant blame Islam for their deteriorating conditions either.


Harvard law professor Feldmen has reserched sharia law and he doesnt think sharia is like a dictatorship


for most of its history, Islamic law offered the most liberal and humane legal principles available anywhere in the world. Today, when we invoke the harsh punishments prescribed by Shariah for a handful of offenses, we rarely acknowledge the high standards of proof necessary for their implementation.
...The extremes of our own legal system — like life sentences for relatively minor drug crimes, in some cases — are routinely ignored. We neglect to mention the recent vintage of our tentative improvements in family law. It sometimes seems as if we need Shariah as Westerners have long needed Islam: as a canvas on which to project our ideas of the horrible, and as a foil to make us look good.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16Shariah-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2011/03/feldman_cnn.html

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Posted: 06 March 2013 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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>>In this chart, Saudi Arabia crime rate is less than 5% of both sweden and switzerland <<

That they’ll admit to. Dictatorships….as pointed out….do NOT like to show off their dirty laundry for all to see.

>>Correlation does not imply causation<<

That’s right, it doesn’t. So congratulations, you’ve just refuted every claim you’ve been making with five simple words.

>>Harvard law professor Feldmen has reserched sharia law and he doesnt think sharia is like a dictatorship<<

He’s wrong. (And so are you!) It’s forcing a relgious creed down everybody’ s throats under penalty of execution based on a core premise which has no support whatever in any sort of evidence.

Period.

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Posted: 06 March 2013 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 06 March 2013 04:24 PM

>>In this chart, Saudi Arabia crime rate is less than 5% of both sweden and switzerland <<

That they’ll admit to. Dictatorships….as pointed out….do NOT like to show off their dirty laundry for all to see.

>>Correlation does not imply causation<<

That’s right, it doesn’t. So congratulations, you’ve just refuted every claim you’ve been making with five simple words.

>>Harvard law professor Feldmen has reserched sharia law and he doesnt think sharia is like a dictatorship<<

He’s wrong. (And so are you!) It’s forcing a relgious creed down everybody’ s throats under penalty of execution based on a core premise which has no support whatever in any sort of evidence.

Period.

I have gone out of my way to provide scholarly resources of non-muslims on the subjects. So it looks like even non Muslims criminologists aren’t “showing off their dirty laundry”.

 

Yes correlation does not imply causation. Thats why any two correlation between 2 varaibles must be carefully studied to verify the cause.
In this case


“Most scholars
attribute the low Saudi Arabian crime rate mainly to the strong influence of Islam in various spheres of life in Saudi society, particularly to the implementation of Shariah
Comparative conducted by Western criminologists are largely consistent with the conclusions


      Transnational and Comparative criminology,
      by Prof Sheptycki & Prof Wardak

        Page 93-95
        (read at books.google.com)

 

You are free disagree with everything I said, but if you want to convince me that all these scholars (secular ones) are wrong, then I will reply with something that Tradition Of Progress has previously said
on post 66

You seem certain of this, without providing any evidence.  Repeating this statement does not make it true. 

[ Edited: 06 March 2013 05:54 PM by I.J. Abdul Hakeem ]
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Posted: 06 March 2013 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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....and any country which treats women like second class children, is not a country worth emulating….anywhere.

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Posted: 07 March 2013 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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Yes correlation does not imply causation.

That’s right. It doesn’t, and that’s where the conversation ends.

You seem certain of this, without providing any evidence.  Repeating this statement does not make it true. 

Irrelevant in this case. Especially since you’re trying now with this little missive to shift the burden of proof.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the burden of proof lies with you, not with us.

And the absolute fact is that you’re law is founded on a supersitition based on no evidence whatever to support it, to wit the existance of deity.

You really haven’t proven a thing.

Deal with it.

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Posted: 08 March 2013 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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I’ve followed bits and pieces of this thread.  IJ, you’re obviously on a mission to promote your religion, but it’s useless.  I’ll grant everything you’ve said about Shariah Law leading to less violence. Doesn’t mean a single thing.

Let’s say I started my own religion on my own island that has a few thousand inhabitants.  Then I create something called “My-riah Law”.  It has one tenet: “No one except the leader and his henchman will move in any way except to perform bodily functions, including procreation. Any other bodily movement will result in death”.  And I’ll add that this one tenet was given to me in a moment of divine enlightenment by God, who said this one tenet is supposed to supplant everything before it in all current religions.

I guarantee the crime rate will be extremely low under My-riah law. Doesn’t make my little religion worthy of following, or emmulating, or of any real value at all.  You’re arguments amount to the same thing.

[ Edited: 08 March 2013 11:13 AM by CuthbertJ ]
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Posted: 09 March 2013 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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CuthBertJ

I just want to make sure I understand properly.

Are you


1) Asking what does less crime have to do with proving a religion?


2)  Why should we get sacrifice our freedoms for low crime when the law can be compared to

No one except the leader and his henchman will move in any way except to perform bodily functions, including procreation. Any other bodily movement will result in death”

 

 


If #1 is the case

Then I fully agree everything I have said so far proves almost nothing in that my faith is true.

 

Why have I posted all this then?

This was in reply to what Tradition of Progress said in post 66

Of course I do, and like many others, I am also aware that the greater a role it plays in politics and government, the worse government gets.


I am only arguing that this is not true in this case.

 

I am not arguing all this to prove

Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 07 March 2013 06:21 PM

the existance of deity.

 

 

If you are arguing #2

Then I dont properly understand your what your analogy is precisely objecting to.
Please clarify

Thanks.

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Posted: 09 March 2013 06:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 07 March 2013 06:21 PM

Yes correlation does not imply causation.

That’s right. It doesn’t, and that’s where the conversation ends.

 

Ok so will you agree with me that what Tradition of Progress said post 66 is wrong:

Of course I do, and like many others, I am also aware that the greater a role it plays in politics and government, the worse government gets.

 

 

 

Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 07 March 2013 06:21 PM

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the burden of proof lies with you, not with us.

 


I previously said

You are free disagree with everything I said, but if you want to convince me that all these scholars (secular ones) are wrong, then I will reply with something that Tradition Of Progress has previously said
on post 66

  You seem certain of this, without providing any evidence.  Repeating this statement does not make it true. 

 


Yes the burden of proof was on me.

I gave the studies, surveys, and works which agree with me.


The burden of proof is now on you to show they are wrong.

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Posted: 09 March 2013 06:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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And yet another round of senseless violence from the adherents of the ‘religion of peace’ over allegations of A blasphemy by a Christian.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130309/protesters-burn-christian-homes-pakistan-blasphemy-row-0

Over 3,000 Muslim protesters turned violent over derogatory remarks against Prophet Mohammed allegedly made by Sawan Masih, a 28-year-old Christian, three days earlier, police official Multan Khan said.

We KNOW they are the ‘religion of peace’, because they say so. We also know they are ‘law abiding’ because our guest says so.

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Posted: 09 March 2013 07:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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I gave the studies, surveys, and works which agree with me.

Which is all you’ve done.

The burden of proof is now on you to show they are wrong.

Since we’ve already covered that ground, we do not have to do anything of the kind. The whole of your premise is positied on the authority of something, specifically Allah, which does NOT exist.

Do you get it now?

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Posted: 11 March 2013 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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I.J. Abdul Hakeem - 01 March 2013 03:13 PM

Of course I do, and like many others, I am also aware that the greater a role it plays in politics and government, the worse government gets.

Isnt that a bit of an exaggeration?

Take islam for example.  Granted there is no country in which shariah is fully implemented.

Former CIA agent Phillip Giraldi mentions.

              There are more than 50 predominantly Muslim countries in the world, and, while most have elements of Shariah in their civil and family law, only two have it as their criminal codes. They are
              Saudi Arabia and Iran

              http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2012/04/03/the-islamophobia-excuse/


So studying these countries will let us know about how religion affects crime. What do we notice about crime in these countries?

 

“Most scholars attribute the low Saudi Arabian crime ratemainly to the strong influence of Islam in various spheres of life in Saudi society, particularly to the implementation of Shariah
After…the implementation of Shariah law throughout the country, crime rates decreased dramatically while apparent feelings of personal safety and social order improved (Mourad, 1980 pp504-14) Other studies broadly support these conclusions. (Basha, 1979; Basanawi, 1984)
Comparative conducted by Western criminologists are largely consistent with the conclusions….Adler (1983) lists Saudi Arabia among her 10 low crime rate nations….
These studies are in accord with the overall high sense of security and personal safety among Saudi citizens. (El-Sendiony, 1981)

          Transnational and Comparative criminology,
          by Prof Sheptycki & Prof Wardak
            Page 93-95
            (read at books.google.com)

This is NOT to say that these countries are absolutely perfect. But where they follow religion in their government, they seem prosperous


They are perfect.  Absolutely perfect hellholes. Any country can have a low crime rate if they keep half the population in thrall to the other half.  Maybe they should try putting the women in control of the men,  keep men from driving or going out of the home unaccompanied by a woman and make men wear burkhas and veils.  Then we’ll see the crime rate plummet even further.  What a great solution!

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