Would a moral God step up to his responsibilities?
Posted: 12 September 2011 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]
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Would a moral God step up to his responsibilities?

  God cannot do miracles. If he could, he would.

  From God’s POV, all here must be perfect. He began in perfection and would not back slide to anything less. That’s scripture. It is to us to see things as he does.

  From mankind’s POV, all here is not perfection. This contrary and wrong POV is promoted by religion and is generally accepted to some degree by most people. I tend to agree with God even as most do not.

  From a moral stand point, most will agree, that if one sees a wrong that they can right; they will do the right thing and right the wrong. This is the right thing to do.

  The fact that there are preventable human evil acts being perpetrated by mankind, supposedly created by God, and he does not act, means that a moral God does not exist.

  A moral God takes responsibility and God is not stepping up. A moral God would. If he could that is. Just as all of us would. We are in his image and know that stepping up is a good idea. 

  Perhaps God is not the miracles working super God. You know the one. The one that man has created to hold all of his hopes and wishes, dreams and desires, loves, ——and hates —-, and although never seen in any real way,—- believers will kill for Him. Insanity.

  If God does exist, and is not moral, then what good is he to mankind or you?
Would you want life without morals?

  No wonder then that Eve, the first to be as God/human,——yes there is a difference,——had the wisdom to have adam/mankind, eat of it. What a wonderful myth.

  Believers who follow a God without morals, Bible God, should question why they do.
God has a basis in reality but certainly not like the God without morals that has somehow been molded by what was initially, a rather beautiful ideas. The Bible.

  To think and act God like, is to——- do unto others.
If God creates man, then it should be for a best end. Not an evil end like hell. Fact is, many millions die daily of easily preventable cause. Allowed to by a miracle working God who just does not step up.

  The fact that God, who by definition, would have the attribute of taking responsibility, as any good entity would, proves beyond any doubt that a moral miracle working God cannot exists.
 
And if there is a miracle working God, mankind should give him a thumbs down for his lack of morals.

Can a moral God exist?
Is it moral for God, who wants relevance to mankind, to not step up?
As a creator God does he have any responsibility to what he creates?

Regards
DL

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Posted: 12 September 2011 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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If you follow The Old Testament you will find a God that is actively involved in day to day life.  He is routinely credited for the works of floods, plagues and facilitated the successes of varying peoples through direct intervention.  He communicated regularly with his followers, gave instruction, killed by the hundreds of thousands, parted seas and endowed great powers to his prophets for the performance of miracles.  This God of the Old Testament was judgemental, tempermental, insecure, and vengeful.  To even resist the circumsision of your children could bring down the wrath of God and spell certain death to you and your family.  Not exactly what I have in mind when I heard the words “God’s Loves all His Children”.  Proud or responsible parents don’t kill their children when they misbehave out of ignorance.  If God existed today and still saw fit to intervene directly in his children’s lives, I believe he would be standing trial for child abuse or neglect.

Since morality is a cultural point of view, debating God’s moral standing is dependent on the culture of the people in the debate and therefore impossible to reach consensus.  Responsibility of creation is a human concept and what we would deem appropriate would not apply to a divine being.  Being omnipotent means being above reproach and judgement.  If He exists, He can do what he feels like when he feels like it regardless of how moral it may be to an observer (or victim).

If there is a God, I think its obvious that He no longer takes interest or action in everyday life whether moral or not. Based on his actions in the past, (if the Old Testament is to be taken literally) I would say we’re all a lot better off.

Scott

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Imagine being a free-thinking intellectual from Seattle living in the Heart of the Bible Belt.  Where everyone regularly follows the chuch of Fox News.  Receives their sermons from Rush Limbaugh.  Invocation from Glenn Beck.  And Sarah Palin is their Prophet….

IF there’s a Hell…..  I found it.

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Posted: 12 September 2011 01:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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No argument from me on this.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 19 September 2011 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Greatest I am - 12 September 2011 11:37 AM

Would a moral God step up to his responsibilities?

  God cannot do miracles. If he could, he would.

  From God’s POV, all here must be perfect. He began in perfection and would not back slide to anything less. That’s scripture. It is to us to see things as he does.

  From mankind’s POV, all here is not perfection. This contrary and wrong POV is promoted by religion and is generally accepted to some degree by most people. I tend to agree with God even as most do not.

  From a moral stand point, most will agree, that if one sees a wrong that they can right; they will do the right thing and right the wrong. This is the right thing to do.

  The fact that there are preventable human evil acts being perpetrated by mankind, supposedly created by God, and he does not act, means that a moral God does not exist.

  A moral God takes responsibility and God is not stepping up. A moral God would. If he could that is. Just as all of us would. We are in his image and know that stepping up is a good idea. 

  Perhaps God is not the miracles working super God. You know the one. The one that man has created to hold all of his hopes and wishes, dreams and desires, loves, ——and hates —-, and although never seen in any real way,—- believers will kill for Him. Insanity.

  If God does exist, and is not moral, then what good is he to mankind or you?
Would you want life without morals?

  No wonder then that Eve, the first to be as God/human,——yes there is a difference,——had the wisdom to have adam/mankind, eat of it. What a wonderful myth.

  Believers who follow a God without morals, Bible God, should question why they do.
God has a basis in reality but certainly not like the God without morals that has somehow been molded by what was initially, a rather beautiful ideas. The Bible.

  To think and act God like, is to——- do unto others.
If God creates man, then it should be for a best end. Not an evil end like hell. Fact is, many millions die daily of easily preventable cause. Allowed to by a miracle working God who just does not step up.

  The fact that God, who by definition, would have the attribute of taking responsibility, as any good entity would, proves beyond any doubt that a moral miracle working God cannot exists.
 
And if there is a miracle working God, mankind should give him a thumbs down for his lack of morals.

Can a moral God exist?
Is it moral for God, who wants relevance to mankind, to not step up?
As a creator God does he have any responsibility to what he creates?

Regards
DL

Even if anyone believes in a god it is beyond me how they can believe in a benevolent god.

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Posted: 19 September 2011 01:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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deros - 19 September 2011 12:56 PM
Greatest I am - 12 September 2011 11:37 AM

Would a moral God step up to his responsibilities?

  God cannot do miracles. If he could, he would.

  From God’s POV, all here must be perfect. He began in perfection and would not back slide to anything less. That’s scripture. It is to us to see things as he does.

  From mankind’s POV, all here is not perfection. This contrary and wrong POV is promoted by religion and is generally accepted to some degree by most people. I tend to agree with God even as most do not.

  From a moral stand point, most will agree, that if one sees a wrong that they can right; they will do the right thing and right the wrong. This is the right thing to do.

  The fact that there are preventable human evil acts being perpetrated by mankind, supposedly created by God, and he does not act, means that a moral God does not exist.

  A moral God takes responsibility and God is not stepping up. A moral God would. If he could that is. Just as all of us would. We are in his image and know that stepping up is a good idea. 

  Perhaps God is not the miracles working super God. You know the one. The one that man has created to hold all of his hopes and wishes, dreams and desires, loves, ——and hates —-, and although never seen in any real way,—- believers will kill for Him. Insanity.

  If God does exist, and is not moral, then what good is he to mankind or you?
Would you want life without morals?

  No wonder then that Eve, the first to be as God/human,——yes there is a difference,——had the wisdom to have adam/mankind, eat of it. What a wonderful myth.

  Believers who follow a God without morals, Bible God, should question why they do.
God has a basis in reality but certainly not like the God without morals that has somehow been molded by what was initially, a rather beautiful ideas. The Bible.

  To think and act God like, is to——- do unto others.
If God creates man, then it should be for a best end. Not an evil end like hell. Fact is, many millions die daily of easily preventable cause. Allowed to by a miracle working God who just does not step up.

  The fact that God, who by definition, would have the attribute of taking responsibility, as any good entity would, proves beyond any doubt that a moral miracle working God cannot exists.
 
And if there is a miracle working God, mankind should give him a thumbs down for his lack of morals.

Can a moral God exist?
Is it moral for God, who wants relevance to mankind, to not step up?
As a creator God does he have any responsibility to what he creates?

Regards
DL

Even if anyone believes in a god it is beyond me how they can believe in a benevolent god.

I guess if you believe then you can make yourself believe all the B S you want.

Belief comes from faith for them and when you have discarded logic and reason for faith, you can be made to believe damned near anything.
Perhaps that is why theists can make themselves believe that the genocide of mankind is good justice.
As long as God id doing the genociding that is.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 19 September 2011 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Greatest I am - 19 September 2011 01:04 PM
deros - 19 September 2011 12:56 PM
Greatest I am - 12 September 2011 11:37 AM

Would a moral God step up to his responsibilities?

  God cannot do miracles. If he could, he would.

  From God’s POV, all here must be perfect. He began in perfection and would not back slide to anything less. That’s scripture. It is to us to see things as he does.

  From mankind’s POV, all here is not perfection. This contrary and wrong POV is promoted by religion and is generally accepted to some degree by most people. I tend to agree with God even as most do not.

  From a moral stand point, most will agree, that if one sees a wrong that they can right; they will do the right thing and right the wrong. This is the right thing to do.

  The fact that there are preventable human evil acts being perpetrated by mankind, supposedly created by God, and he does not act, means that a moral God does not exist.

  A moral God takes responsibility and God is not stepping up. A moral God would. If he could that is. Just as all of us would. We are in his image and know that stepping up is a good idea. 

  Perhaps God is not the miracles working super God. You know the one. The one that man has created to hold all of his hopes and wishes, dreams and desires, loves, ——and hates —-, and although never seen in any real way,—- believers will kill for Him. Insanity.

  If God does exist, and is not moral, then what good is he to mankind or you?
Would you want life without morals?

  No wonder then that Eve, the first to be as God/human,——yes there is a difference,——had the wisdom to have adam/mankind, eat of it. What a wonderful myth.

  Believers who follow a God without morals, Bible God, should question why they do.
God has a basis in reality but certainly not like the God without morals that has somehow been molded by what was initially, a rather beautiful ideas. The Bible.

  To think and act God like, is to——- do unto others.
If God creates man, then it should be for a best end. Not an evil end like hell. Fact is, many millions die daily of easily preventable cause. Allowed to by a miracle working God who just does not step up.

  The fact that God, who by definition, would have the attribute of taking responsibility, as any good entity would, proves beyond any doubt that a moral miracle working God cannot exists.
 
And if there is a miracle working God, mankind should give him a thumbs down for his lack of morals.

Can a moral God exist?
Is it moral for God, who wants relevance to mankind, to not step up?
As a creator God does he have any responsibility to what he creates?

Regards
DL

Even if anyone believes in a god it is beyond me how they can believe in a benevolent god.

I guess if you believe then you can make yourself believe all the B S you want.

Belief comes from faith for them and when you have discarded logic and reason for faith, you can be made to believe damned near anything.
Perhaps that is why theists can make themselves believe that the genocide of mankind is good justice.
As long as God id doing the genociding that is.

Regards
DL

As if your “views” require any less faith…

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 19 September 2011 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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If we play chess and I take your knight will this god see the evil I have done?  If I invade your countries in Risk and kill your Risk armies will this god see the evil I have done?

You are essentially trying to construct a proof by contradiction in the original post, but the problem is that a proof by contradiction must first assume certain things are true.  In this case that there is a good god, that there is an afterlife, that there is a divine plan etc.

Your contradiction is that such a being cannot be good because they allow harm in this life.  But, that supposes something else, something not necessary.  Namely, that suffering in this life is meaningful in a greater context of this already assumed afterlife.  It implies an absolutism to suffering.  That an imposition of loss of life or property or pain is an important event in your assumed souls assumed grand existence.  But, why?


Maybe the consequences to ourselves in this life are just a consequence of our lack of perspective, and once we get a later perspective we will see them as unimportant.

In the end, atheism shouldn’t bother with this line of inquiry as it is simply to slippery.

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Posted: 19 September 2011 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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This discussion seems to be an exercise in futility. I assume from the posts that the reference is to the Abrahamic god of the old testament. If so, then there are several interpretations to be considered. What about the Gnostic concept of the anrgy god of the Jews as contrasted to the kind and loving god of the new testament? Do we derive our innate morality from a loose collection of often misquoted writings from rival bishops with varying opinions, or from the society and the time period in which we live? Does the concept of morality change over time? Is what was moral in the bronze age the same as as it is today?  I’m not considering the obvious like not killing your neighbor for kicks and giggles but, for instance: signing a contract to perform work or purchase something as opposed to giving your “word” to complete the task. Isn’t it morally wrong to kill your child for insubordination? It obviously wasn’t in the past. What about child labor? Morally wrong and punishable by damnation? What about slavery? Ok then, not ok now. Considered immoral today. even reprehensible!

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 19 September 2011 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Greatest, you’re making no sense again.  In plain English, what is your question or topic of discussion? First of all, which god are you talking about and second, how do you know for sure that deity exists, in which to be moral and/or to take any responsibility?  That is the first thing that does not make sense and because of that, the rest of what you said just falls apart, because there is no clarification in your very first sentence.

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Mriana
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Posted: 19 September 2011 11:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Who claims dog… er god… was, is moral?

As for Lords, we all know they are, by their very nature, immoral creatures.

If your looking for responsibilities. . . . . . .    or lack thereof,
perhaps you’d better focus on the human heart

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Posted: 20 September 2011 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Mriana - 19 September 2011 08:08 PM

Greatest, you’re making no sense again.  In plain English, what is your question or topic of discussion? First of all, which god are you talking about and second, how do you know for sure that deity exists, in which to be moral and/or to take any responsibility?  That is the first thing that does not make sense and because of that, the rest of what you said just falls apart, because there is no clarification in your very first sentence.

My biblical references show that it is basically the Abrahamic cults that I question and the last three question of the O P set what I wish to discuss.

If I need to add a disclaimer for belief in God after you read the O P, the my English, not my mother tongue, is worse than I think.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 20 September 2011 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Greatest I am - 20 September 2011 06:41 AM
Mriana - 19 September 2011 08:08 PM

Greatest, you’re making no sense again.  In plain English, what is your question or topic of discussion? First of all, which god are you talking about and second, how do you know for sure that deity exists, in which to be moral and/or to take any responsibility?  That is the first thing that does not make sense and because of that, the rest of what you said just falls apart, because there is no clarification in your very first sentence.

My biblical references show that it is basically the Abrahamic cults that I question and the last three question of the O P set what I wish to discuss.

If I need to add a disclaimer for belief in God after you read the O P, the my English, not my mother tongue, is worse than I think.

Regards
DL

OK, if these are your questions:

Can a moral God exist?
Is it moral for God, who wants relevance to mankind, to not step up?
As a creator God does he have any responsibility to what he creates?

Keep in mind humans created God- any and every god from the Egyptians to the Greeks to the Hindus to modern religions.  The idea of a deity is a human concept.  The god is a moral as the humans make said deity to be and as moral as the authority (also human) imposing said deity.  The same goes for the responsibility- it is whatever the humans who created the concept say it to be.  In other words, said deity can do whatever its creators, the humans, imagine it can do.  It’s all in the imagination and whatever you want your deity to do or not do and what morals you want your deity to have.  Which in effect makes you the “creator god” and not the other way around.

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Posted: 20 September 2011 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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I agree completely.

Theists will not and if any show up, we can have a debate.

Regards
DL

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