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CERN claims faster-than-light particle measured (Merged)
Posted: 23 September 2011 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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George - 23 September 2011 10:42 AM
traveler - 23 September 2011 10:00 AM

And if! the calculations are based on accurate data to sufficient precision.

Sure. But if all the data are correct then why not turn to the Atheist’s Bible and remember Carl 3:16?

“We wish to pursue the truth no matter where it leads. But to find the truth, we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact. The cosmos is full beyond measure of elegant truths; of exquisite interrelationships; of the awesome machinery of nature.”

This is actually one of the problems I have noticed with the recent movement of the “rational thinking”: people are afraid to speculate not because they are afraid to be wrong but because they feel intimidated to be accused of irrational thinking.

Come on, guys, loosen up! If we are afraid to speculate we might as well all turn to writing for Wikipedia instead.

A man after my own heart…... cheese

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Posted: 23 September 2011 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Where is the good point? That’s a very strange article. The author doesn’t care if Einstein was right because skeptics and scientists don’t care for UFOs? What?

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Posted: 23 September 2011 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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George - 23 September 2011 02:14 PM

Where is the good point? That’s a very strange article. The author doesn’t care if Einstein was right because skeptics and scientists don’t care for UFOs? What?

Some people’s view of scientists is a follows:
Scientists don’t believe in the paranormal or UFOs because they are “stuck” in their worldview - which contains certain laws like nothing with mass can go FTL.
Something has been found that might travel FTL, so scientists will surely do all they can to prove this wrong.

Ben’s point:
Scientists (real scientists) have no fixed worldview. They are open to discovery. They love discovery. That’s where the awe often is. If neutrinos can travel FTL, then fine, cool, what’s it mean? It doesn’t matter that it flies in the face of what Einstein wrote. In fact, scientists would be fascinated by the paranormal if there was any reason to believe it exists.

I.e., scientists are not closed to the current scientific state-of-the-art. They are open to any contrary evidence. But they are strict about the evidence. Unlike the paranormal investigators and the like.

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Posted: 23 September 2011 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Tell that to Carl Sagan!

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Posted: 23 September 2011 02:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Sandy Price - 23 September 2011 02:34 PM

Tell that to Carl Sagan!

Sagan taught that to us.

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Posted: 23 September 2011 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Good job by Ben Radford, I was thinking about that whole argument also.  The idea that scientists are defending their established dogma against any new discoverys because they can’t take contradictory evidence - what a laugh; that’s what scientists do, ain’t it!

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Posted: 23 September 2011 03:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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There are many scientists who hold on to their opinion as long as possible and interpret the “evidence” according to their beliefs. It happens all the time. It’s happening in physics, in biology, in anthropology, in psychology and in other sciences. Once the evidence becomes overwhelming (e.g., humans having Neandertal DNA) they usually (not always!) accept their mistake, but until then they defend their “dogma” as long as they can. Of course, they are only human, just like the rest of us.

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Posted: 23 September 2011 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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mid atlantic - 23 September 2011 02:43 PM

Good job by Ben Radford, I was thinking about that whole argument also.  The idea that scientists are defending their established dogma against any new discoverys because they can’t take contradictory evidence - what a laugh; that’s what scientists do, ain’t it!

Of course there have been scientists gone mad rather than abandon their theories. But in the end, Science will always prevail. Falsification rules.

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Posted: 23 September 2011 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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George - 23 September 2011 03:00 PM

There are many scientists who hold on to their opinion as long as possible and interpret the “evidence” according to their beliefs. It happens all the time. It’s happening in physics, in biology, in anthropology, in psychology and in other sciences. Once the evidence becomes overwhelming (e.g., humans having Neandertal DNA) they usually (not always!) accept their mistake, but until then they defend their “dogma” as long as they can. Of course, they are only human, just like the rest of us.

That’s very true and it’s why I wrote parenthetically (real scientists). Science is self-correcting in light of evidence, even though some scientists maintain there emotional ties to some things. Ben’s point was not earth shattering. He was simply pointing out that science does not “care” if something changes or proves wrong previous ideas.

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Posted: 23 September 2011 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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Science may not care, but scientists do. Even (or perhaps even especially) the real scientists. This may not be the appropriate place for it, but if you’d like we get get into more details on this subject one day.

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Posted: 23 September 2011 09:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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They are saying the neutrino showed up 60 nanoseconds soon after traveling 450 miles.

If my calculations are correct that is 1/500th of 1% faster than light speed.

I guess we will have to wait a while for that warp 2 engine.

psik

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Posted: 24 September 2011 01:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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George - 23 September 2011 03:00 PM

There are many scientists who hold on to their opinion as long as possible and interpret the “evidence” according to their beliefs. It happens all the time. It’s happening in physics, in biology, in anthropology, in psychology and in other sciences. Once the evidence becomes overwhelming (e.g., humans having Neandertal DNA) they usually (not always!) accept their mistake, but until then they defend their “dogma” as long as they can. Of course, they are only human, just like the rest of us.

There is- can you give some examples?

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Posted: 24 September 2011 02:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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psikeyhackr - 23 September 2011 09:40 PM

They are saying the neutrino showed up 60 nanoseconds soon after traveling 450 miles.

If my calculations are correct that is 1/500th of 1% faster than light speed.

I guess we will have to wait a while for that warp 2 engine.  psik

What I don’t quite understand is how they could aim and fire a neutrino packet through 450+ miles of solid rock, then manage to “catch it” 60 nanoseconds before it has been fired…... cheese

[ Edited: 24 September 2011 02:03 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 24 September 2011 04:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Rationality also needs a little dogmatism. If only on (insecure) experiment would already falsify a theory, science would not be that far as it is right now. Rationality is a mix of dogmatism, scepticism, speculation and ... irony.

Obviously, the data of this experiment were officially published because somebody already leaked them. The scientists themselves would have preferred to wait, and find the source of the error. For those who can read German…(Swiss television)

For those who like conspiracies: European authorities have cut the budget of CERN with 5%... (Swiss Newspaper)

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Posted: 24 September 2011 07:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Maybe the experiment shows you can travel faster than light - but only to Italy.

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