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Is ufology now a religion?
Posted: 12 October 2011 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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George - 12 October 2011 06:10 PM
DarronS - 12 October 2011 06:09 PM
George - 12 October 2011 06:03 PM

I don’t think the fact that it was within their capabilities has anything to do with why they would make it. The fish, spiders, monkeys, etc., make sense, but not the tens-of-miles long and miles wide zigzag lines.

Yet you think it makes sense that advanced aliens traveled trillions of miles to make those lines without leaving any other physical evidence behind. oh oh

Again, it makes more sense than the other explanations.

It makes no sense at all George. As Doug mentioned a few posts back, the idea is absurd.

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Posted: 12 October 2011 06:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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No, it doesn’t make sense, but it does make more sense than the other stuff. Just like Lamarckism made more sense than Genesis.

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Posted: 12 October 2011 06:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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You’ve really gone off the deep end here, George.

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Posted: 12 October 2011 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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dougsmith - 12 October 2011 06:33 PM

You’ve really gone off the deep end here, George.

I’m glad I’m not the only person entertaining that thought…

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Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

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Posted: 13 October 2011 08:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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Do I understand that all the carvings, sculptures of space ships and men wearing space suits are all a joke?  The enormous mounds found including the “serpent” found in Ohio at the time the founders first came to America; are these a joke?  I realized years ago that the books of Frank Edwards were not based on fact but speculation of the great “what could be” and I have been impressed with the continuing research done by Von Danikin.  The Nazca lines seen only from the sky in Peru? all jokes?

I don’t know but I will not stop searching for answers based on a negative response on the internet.  I watched History Channel last night and headed over to the link where much of their information comes from.  They all agree that if any proof of space travel from outside our universe does arise, it will take down every single religious group on our planet.  That right there would be an enormous asset to our species. 

The fight is on between having millions believing in an occult superstitious god; and the fact that we humans are built on a wonderful and fulfilling case of evolution.  Another aspect of this search for truth would be to conquer poverty and hunger all over our planet.  Religion runs on out breeding each other and pure science runs on improving our own species through higher education and better nourishment. 

The churches deserve to fail.  Here in America we are facing an election for the top job based on a hated black man and a group who believe that America is a nation based on the New Testament.  This religious mass want America to be a nation for White Christian Straight Men only.  This structure has been in leadership from the beginning and our nation cannot survive much more of this terrorism of hell and damnation. 

I realize that the internet may not be the best source for truth but it is the only source where I can opine and ask question. 

I will sit back and continue to search for the truth behind UFOs.  This truth will kill religion and that will be worth the wait. 

The fight against the religious right has an agenda that would destroy American Free Enterprise.  The left side of the argument will hand the government full control over our lives.  On the right we find the Republican Party being infiltrated by the many Christian groups in America.  Over the years Americans have been told that birth control and abortions will destroy our nation by the actions of their monster God.  As the GOP grew we now learn that women must be subservient to their husbands and simply learn to obey as their function is to breed.  Since the homosexuals came out of the closer they have been added to the list of heretics and should be destroyed.  No church would be allowed that did not claim that Jesus Christ is the only way to get to heaven; all other churches are simply heretics. 

If the Religious Right does beat President Obama in November 2012, America will face the same conditions that France, Spain and Italy faced during the Inquisitions. 

May I add that I have been a Republican since Ike because of the opportunity to invest in corporations.  I was not born to inherit any money and my only hope of a comfortable retirement would be my investments.  Over the years the GOP has become ugly and repugnant and I would rather live on the street without the threat of hell and damnation than in a world where humans are constantly sinning in the eyes of the government. 

Come on SETI, help us out here!  Find something quick!!!

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Posted: 13 October 2011 09:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Sandy Price - 13 October 2011 08:18 AM

Do I understand that all the carvings, sculptures of space ships and men wearing space suits are all a joke?  The enormous mounds found including the “serpent” found in Ohio at the time the founders first came to America; are these a joke?  I realized years ago that the books of Frank Edwards were not based on fact but speculation of the great “what could be” and I have been impressed with the continuing research done by Von Danikin.  The Nazca lines seen only from the sky in Peru? all jokes?

No, not jokes, just examples of people’s propensity to see the patterns they look for. Let give an example. A couple of weeks ago my wife and I went to the Albuquerque Balloon Fiesta with our best friends. On the first day of the trip, after driving across West Texas all afternoon, we approached Pecos, TX just before sunset. Boredom had driven us to playing silly games, such as looking for windmills and Airstream trailers. Seeing a shiny trailer followed by a delivery van Jim and I pointed and said “Airstream” at the same time. When we got closer we realized the trailer was not an Airstream, but a shiny new gasoline tanker. We see what we are looking for, as in the famous video of the man in a gorilla suit roller skating trough a group passing a basketball. The vast majority of people, when asked to count how many times the people pass the basketball, miss the roller-skating gorilla when first watching the video.

Anyone impressed by the continuing work of von Daniken is exhibiting extreme confirmation bias on this subject. The man’s work has been thoroughly debunked over the decades.

I don’t know but I will not stop searching for answers based on a negative response on the internet.  I watched History Channel last night…

As I mentioned earlier, the History Channel is notorious for spreading pseudoscience. That is a big reason my wife and I dropped our cable TV subscription early this year.

...and headed over to the link where much of their information comes from.  They all agree that if any proof of space travel from outside our universe does arise, it will take down every single religious group on our planet.  That right there would be an enormous asset to our species.

I hope you did not mean to use the word “universe,” for if we did find credible evidence of aliens visiting from outside our universe it would destroy everything we know about physics and cosmology, and the religious would jump all over it saying, “See, there is life outside our universe! Science is wrong, therefore God!”

I realize that the internet may not be the best source for truth but it is the only source where I can opine and ask question.

I asked you to provide links to photos of these carvings and such that you said “could be interpreted” as evidence of alien visitors. I would appreciate you doing so.

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Posted: 13 October 2011 09:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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DarronS - 13 October 2011 09:19 AM

I hope you did not mean to use the word “universe,” for if we did find credible evidence of aliens visiting from outside our universe it would destroy everything we know about physics and cosmology, and the religious would jump all over it saying, “See, there is life outside our universe! Science is wrong, therefore God!”.

Bravo, Darron.

DarronS - 13 October 2011 09:19 AM

I asked you to provide links to photos of these carvings and such that you said “could be interpreted” as evidence of alien visitors. I would appreciate you doing so.

Here is one:

Ancientastronauts.jpg

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Posted: 13 October 2011 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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First of all, I am not looking for a damn thing.  I spent years ignoring the information regarding UFO and especially aliens from anywhere.  Somehow you have me pegged as a stupid old woman and I resent it.  My interest in UFOs started when my husband began to look at the evidence from “men with telescopes” who were reporting some mysterious shit found in the heavens.  We drove down to Orange County to attend a meeting that had may one or two serious scientists and the rest were wingnuts.  We could tell the difference!!!

My best friend had married a scientists who was stationed at Palomar and found “things” he could not explain.  We drove down there and he and Ray drove up to the telescope and spent the day.  Nothing could be found so we drove home.  We began searching books that could prove or disprove the outer space stuff.  My friend’s husband transferred to the University of Texas at Austin where he became known for his work in outer space with respect to aliens.  I don’t know if he published any manuscripts but he was not a kook!  At this time we drove to New Mexico to see if anything was available even to a Scientist.  Everything was closed up tight and we were unable to get a look at the Blue Book from D.C.  Many scientists have given their opinion on whether or not we did have visitors from out space.  Remember, we had no television so Sci fi stuff was not part of our home life.  I did get the Edwards and Von Danikin books and immediately I was interested in blowing the crap out of the churches. 

The pictures that were discussed in the books and on the History Channel are all available for your perusal.  I just moved back to California and did not keep my my stuff.  I did meet Bill Birnes during my member ship in MUFON and of course he had been the man in charge when my son did their programs. 

I don’t know who you are but you come off as very rude in site noted for open debate on all subjects.  I am not pushing anyone to believe in anything!  I have an open mind and hope to keep it; probably not here.

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Posted: 13 October 2011 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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DarronS - 13 October 2011 09:19 AM

I hope you did not mean to use the word “universe,” for if we did find credible evidence of aliens visiting from outside our universe it would destroy everything we know about physics and cosmology, and the religious would jump all over it saying, “See, there is life outside our universe! Science is wrong, therefore God!”

Well, I’m not sure how we could make any decision on the spacetime from which an alien came, but what sorts of things are you referring to that would be destroyed? I’m not disagreeing, I’m just not clear on this.

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Posted: 13 October 2011 10:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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DarronS - 12 October 2011 05:02 PM

People who argue that interstellar travel is possible are working under the unspoken assumption that future advances in physics will not merely add to our knowledge, but will dismantle what we know and replace it with something more conducive to interstellar travel.

Which is fine, to be negative about this is to imagine we are at some privileged stage in the history of our knowledge.

Stephen

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Posted: 13 October 2011 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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Sandy, I neither stated nor implied you are a “stupid old woman.” I stated you are exhibiting confirmation bias on this subject. That is a long way from denigrating your intelligence.

George, Nice photo you found on one of Google’s servers. Care to add some context to establish credibility?

traveler - 13 October 2011 10:07 AM

Well, I’m not sure how we could make any decision on the spacetime from which an alien came, but what sorts of things are you referring to that would be destroyed? I’m not disagreeing, I’m just not clear on this.

Aliens from another universe would destroy our theory that nothing exists outside our universe, and that everything we can detect was born during the Big Bang. That includes time. If there is nothing outside our universe there is nowhere for these hypothetical aliens to reside.

[ Edited: 13 October 2011 10:42 AM by DarronS ]
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Posted: 13 October 2011 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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DarronS - 13 October 2011 10:40 AM

Care to add some content to establish credibility?

No, not really. You wanted something that could be interpreted as evidence of alien visitors, so I got you one. I am not going to defend von Däniken’s speculations because as interesting as some of the stuff he writes about is, it’s just that, speculations. That said, I am not completely ready to reject the possibility that aliens did visit our planet at some point in our past and were we to find some actual evidence one day that it did happen, it would be worthwhile, in my opinion, to examine in more detail all those hundreds of unexplained “stylized” figures, objects and events from the past.

Anybody who has ever read von Däniken would know that he actually never claimed that we had been visited by aliens. It is people like Joe Nickel with their arrogantly conflated arguments who believe they had solved all the mysteries of the world. von Däniken is only curious and has an unusual imagination. Joe Nickell, OTOH, is a pompous ass.

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Posted: 13 October 2011 11:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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If any of you are interested in what actual archaeologists have to say about this nonsense, there is an entire website devoted to it: the Hall of Ma’at. They have discussion fora as well as a list of papers on various crank archaeology theories. There’s also an excellent book by Prof. Garrett Fagan on the same subject. Fagan was a guest on PoI several years back.

Re. von Däniken, Prof. Omhundro reposts a paper from Skeptical Inquirer:

This review has been aimed at those readers of von Däniken who feel that in the interests of science and reasonableness we should consider his argument. I have sketched some of the reasons why, when one considers his argument, one discovers no science or reasonableness in it. The mass popularity of Chariots of the Gods? doesn’t derive ultimately from any interest in science or reasonableness but, as I have suggested, stems from a reaction against it. There is some justification for such a reaction; I even advocate a dose of insanity in everyone’s life. Von Däniken ‘s book is a good read if you need a dose of enthusiastic delirium. But I do not mix my insanity and my science.

All of this spacemen-built-the-pyramids stuff comes from complete ignorance about the history and archaeology behind these places: it comes from an untutored eye looking at old inscriptions and paintings and saying, “gosh, that looks like a guy with a spacesuit on”, rather like a stone adze in the right light might look like an iPhone, or a cloud might look like Snoopy. Once you have even a modicum of background about the history of it all, you see what they were trying to do or trying to say, and it has nothing to do with spacemen or UFOs. More than ignorance I think it also shows a certain western arrogance in assuming that these ancient civilizations’ arts and culture should be immediately obvious to us when we give them a cursory glance. If it looks like a spaceman, it’s a spaceman. I doubt any but the most blinkered nativist would do that sort of thing, for instance, when going to another present-day culture. Travel a little and you pretty quickly begin to see that things that look familiar may have very different meanings halfway around the world. In Spain they wear long, pointed hoods (often white) in Catholic processions. They aren’t the KKK, though they look exactly like them.

The residual stuff which remains unexplained (the sort of thing archaeologists typically term ‘ritual objects’) are best dealt with using the residue of knowledge already established about a culture. Averting to baroque fantasies about spacemen or magical civilizations is of no help at all, since it explains the mundane in terms of the completely obscure.

Extraordinary claims about the existence of galactic civilizations (etc.) require extraordinary evidence. Prehistoric artwork comes nowhere close.

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Posted: 13 October 2011 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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DarronS - 13 October 2011 10:40 AM

Aliens from another universe would destroy our theory that nothing exists outside our universe, and that everything we can detect was born during the Big Bang. That includes time. If there is nothing outside our universe there is nowhere for these hypothetical aliens to reside.

You know perfectly well that Sandy misspoke and meant “outer space,” and not “outside of our universe.” But I guess you need to show us that you’re still working on your science degree, even though, in the process of it, it may include implicitly making fun of Sandy. But keep going…

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Posted: 13 October 2011 11:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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I think one could call Joe Nickell many things, but “pompous” is not one of them. He comes across much more as avuncular. Von Däniken, OTOH, is quite clearly a knowing fraud and out for his own aggrandizement.

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