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Posted: 11 October 2011 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Occam. - 05 October 2011 06:10 PM

I’d be delighted no matter how many clones of me were made.  The idea of my ideas being spread by five times as many of me as at present is great.  LOL

Occam

But there would not be several of you. Each clone would be an exact copy of the original, but would not have the memories. As we are the sum of our memories, each clone would become a different person with similat physical appearance and perhaps similar characteristics (hardwired behavior), but would become (as it learned) a seperate individual.

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Posted: 11 October 2011 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Not quite so, W4U.  The use of the word, “clones” here referred to multiple copies of a person coming out of a transporter.  In that case they would all have identical memories because they would be repeats of the person who went in at the time s/he went in.  However, I agree if cells were taken from the person and incubated to generate a new human.

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Posted: 12 October 2011 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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I wouldn’t mind living with a clone of me.  No arguments, no bigotry, no homophobia and no questioning of how I spent my time or money.  I guess it would have to be a woman whereas I would prefer a man.  Where is this transpoprter?

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Posted: 12 October 2011 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Sandy Price - 12 October 2011 09:50 AM

I wouldn’t mind living with a clone of me.  No arguments, no bigotry, no homophobia and no questioning of how I spent my time or money.  I guess it would have to be a woman whereas I would prefer a man.  Where is this transpoprter?

Sandy!!!?

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Posted: 02 December 2011 06:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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I just wanted to say that the original assumption about the transporters on the television show Star Trek are not correct. Throughout the show it is explained at least once that the person is not destroyed, but dematerialized and the same constituent particles are used to put them back together. Here is a rather long quote from Memory Alpha the star trek wiki. (And yes I know any wiki is inherently of little use to serious research, but I have also heard this explanation through the show, that’s why I included it.)

A typical transport sequence began with a coordinate lock, during which the destination was verified and programmed, via the targeting scanners. Obtaining or maintaining a transporter lock enables the transporter operator to know the subject’s location, even in motion, allowing the beaming process to start more quickly. This is an essential safety precaution when a starship away team enters a potentially dangerous situation that would require an emergency beam-out.

A transporter lock was usually maintained by tracing the homing signal of a communicator or combadge. When there was a risk that such devices would be lost in the field or are otherwise unavailable, personnel could be implanted with a subcutaneous transponder before an away mission, to still provide a means to maintain a transporter lock. Alternatively, sensors could be used to scan for the biosign or energy signature of a subject, which could then be fed into the transporter’s targeting scanner for a lock.

Next, the lifeform or object to be beamed was scanned on the quantum level, using a molecular imaging scanner. At this point, Heisenberg compensators took into account the position and direction of all subatomic particles composing the object or individual and created a map of the physical structure being disassembled, amounting to billions of kiloquads of data.

Simultaneously, the object was broken down into a stream of subatomic particles, also called the matter stream. The matter stream was briefly stored in a pattern buffer while the system compensates for Doppler shift to the destination.

The matter stream was then transmitted to its destination across a subspace domain. As with any type of transmission of energy or radiation, scattering and degradation of the signal must be monitored closely. The annular confinement beam (ACB) acted to maintain the integrity of the information contained in the beam. Finally, the initial process was reversed and the object or individual was reassembled at the destination.

All that being said, I would be freaking stoked to use a transporter to get places. I wouldn’t ever have to worry about being late or not being able to go see some of the awesome stuff this world has to offer.

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Posted: 02 December 2011 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Entanglement is being studied for this very purpose

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/fabric-of-cosmos.html#fabric-quantum

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Posted: 02 December 2011 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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That program surprised me, since I thought I had read somewhere that quantum entanglement could not be used to transmit information. And doesn’t Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle preclude us from measuring the entire state of any one particle, let alone a human body’s worth of them?

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Posted: 02 December 2011 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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domokato - 02 December 2011 03:29 PM

That program surprised me, since I thought I had read somewhere that quantum entanglement could not be used to transmit information. And doesn’t Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle preclude us from measuring the entire state of any one particle, let alone a human body’s worth of them?

As I understand it entanglement has no distance restriction and precludes “uncertainty”, i.e. particles have an inherent (fixed) interaction with each other and uncertainty is not possible.

Note that there needs to be 3 chambers, i.e. traveling from NY to Paris (simplified):
First set of entangled particles:
(NY) +O <—————————————————————> -O (Paris),  then:
(NY) +O <add> -O <—————————————————-> +O (Paris), which yields an exact copy of the original +O in Paris, but destroys the original +O in NY.

[ Edited: 02 December 2011 04:39 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 02 December 2011 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Note that there needs to be 3 chambers, i.e. traveling from NY to Paris (simplified):
First set of entangled particles:
(NY) +O <—————————————————————> -O (Paris),  then:
(NY) +O <add> -O <—————————————————-> +O (Paris), which yields an exact copy of the original +O in Paris, but destroys the original +O in NY.

I understand that, but I don’t understand how the two entangled chambers help with the teleportation. It seems like they’re just reading the states of all the particles in the chamber with the person in it, sending the data to Paris, then changing the states of the particles in the destination chamber to match. I don’t see where the entanglement comes in.

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Posted: 02 December 2011 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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domokato - 02 December 2011 03:29 PM

That program surprised me, since I thought I had read somewhere that quantum entanglement could not be used to transmit information.

This is correct. Though the effects of entanglement seem to be instantaneous, information cannot travel faster than light speed, and so no information can be passed through entanglement.

domokato - 02 December 2011 03:29 PM

And doesn’t Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle preclude us from measuring the entire state of any one particle, let alone a human body’s worth of them?

Correct. I have to assume that all this ‘beaming’ talk assumes that we don’t need to know the positions and momentums of the particles to an extremely high degree of precision. (Trek dealt with this by having the transporters outfitted with “Heisenberg Compensators”, whatever those are).

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Posted: 02 December 2011 08:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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domokato - 02 December 2011 07:21 PM

Note that there needs to be 3 chambers, i.e. traveling from NY to Paris (simplified):
First set of entangled particles:
(NY) +O <—————————————————————> -O (Paris),  then:
(NY) +O <add> -O <—————————————————-> +O (Paris), which yields an exact copy of the original +O in Paris, but destroys the original +O in NY.

I understand that, but I don’t understand how the two entangled chambers help with the teleportation. It seems like they’re just reading the states of all the particles in the chamber with the person in it, sending the data to Paris, then changing the states of the particles in the destination chamber to match. I don’t see where the entanglement comes in.

No, as I understand it, they count and create entangled particles in precise proportion (trillions) to the original. Once entangled distance does not matter. I also wondered about SOL, but they demonstrated that once entangled, location makes no difference (Einstein: spooky action at a distance).  Change one entangled particle and the other (1000 miles apart) must change also. This why the three chambers, the third entangled particle forces the distant particles to change to maintain equilibrium, but it also destroys the original completely (into a heap of random particles).

This is the basis for my (admittedly purely intuitive) notion that there must be a metaphysical dimension (implicate), which is somehow connected to the physical world, in which such actions are free from the restraints of physics, but can then be expressed (explicate) in the physical world.

Perhaps metaphysical is the incorrect term. How about a sub-physical dimension?

[ Edited: 02 December 2011 08:14 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 02 December 2011 08:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Write4U - 02 December 2011 08:04 PM

Change one entangled particle and the other (1000 miles apart) must change also.

Yes, but again, you cannot decide to change the particle in a certain way such that information is passed to the far particle. All that is passed is stochastic in character.

As I understand it, since Trek-style beaming transfers a huge amount of information, beaming cannot occur faster than light speed. There may be some element of entanglement in beaming but there must be other elements as well. (Again, as I understand it).

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Posted: 02 December 2011 09:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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dougsmith - 02 December 2011 08:25 PM
Write4U - 02 December 2011 08:04 PM

Change one entangled particle and the other (1000 miles apart) must change also.

Yes, but again, you cannot decide to change the particle in a certain way such that information is passed to the far particle. All that is passed is stochastic in character.

As I understand it, since Trek-style beaming transfers a huge amount of information, beaming cannot occur faster than light speed. There may be some element of entanglement in beaming but there must be other elements as well. (Again, as I understand it).

Of course, Star Trek transporters cannot work with entanglement. There is no platform of entangled particles at the landing site, so the principle, as explained in the NOVA presentation cannot be applied. In the ST movies it is the particles that are disassembled and reassembled.

In the nova presentation the particles themselves do not move at all, only the information of their state is somehow “known” by the entangled particle, i.e. (+<>-)  , change + to - ,  and we get (-<>+) , at any distance.  It is indeed “spooky”, but accepted science as I understand it.

This is also the principle of Qbits (1,0) where it makes no difference how far the 1 is from the 0, i.e. 1…....,.......0 ,  it remains a bit… gulp

[ Edited: 02 December 2011 09:35 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 02 December 2011 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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In the nova presentation, they first make an entangled set, then send the entangled set to Paris, this transmission may take time. However when the entangled set has arrived in Paris, it does not lose its entanglement with the original set in NY.  Only when creating a second set of entangled particles in NY, the change in the Paris set is instantaneous, while at the same time destroying the original (you) in NY.  When traveling from Paris to NY, they just switch the procedure. So you would arrive back in NY, 4x removed from the original you.

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Posted: 02 December 2011 10:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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Write4U - 02 December 2011 08:04 PM
domokato - 02 December 2011 07:21 PM

Note that there needs to be 3 chambers, i.e. traveling from NY to Paris (simplified):
First set of entangled particles:
(NY) +O <—————————————————————> -O (Paris),  then:
(NY) +O <add> -O <—————————————————-> +O (Paris), which yields an exact copy of the original +O in Paris, but destroys the original +O in NY.

I understand that, but I don’t understand how the two entangled chambers help with the teleportation. It seems like they’re just reading the states of all the particles in the chamber with the person in it, sending the data to Paris, then changing the states of the particles in the destination chamber to match. I don’t see where the entanglement comes in.

No, as I understand it, they count and create entangled particles in precise proportion (trillions) to the original. Once entangled distance does not matter. I also wondered about SOL, but they demonstrated that once entangled, location makes no difference (Einstein: spooky action at a distance).  Change one entangled particle and the other (1000 miles apart) must change also.

That’s the thing, though. It’s not when you change the first particle, it’s when you measure it (which does change it, but once the measurement is done the pair is no longer entangled so any changes to the particles are no longer correlated).

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