3 of 8
3
Steve Jobs Dead
Posted: 06 October 2011 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1995
Joined  2008-09-18

Obviously, iPhones aren’t overpriced when they’ve sold more than 70 million of them. People are willing to pay high prices for iPhones because they’re better. The cellphone market is a commodity marketplace with razor-thin margins. By creating a product that stood head and shoulders above the crowd, Apple created a new market for smart phones.

Yes, Apple got many of its technologies elsewhere. I’m not claiming that Apple invented these technologies (although it did invent a few); my point is that Apple made them real. The Xerox Star was an interesting sideline that failed to penetrate the market. Laser printers were an intriguing oddity until Apple started pushing them as part of its whole desktop publishing strategy. Apple took other people’s ideas and made them marketable. That was Apple’s contribution to the industry: to make things happen.

I agree that Microsoft would have probably gotten around to a GUI eventually. But looking at the quality of their early efforts, they might well have killed the idea. A lousy GUI is inferior to a really clean and fast CLI. Not to say that MS-DOS was really clean and fast. But let’s not forget all those diehard MS-DOS guys who pooh-poohed GUIs for years. Do you really think that Microsoft would have pushed ahead with a technology that rendered its most important product obsolete?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 October 2011 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15358
Joined  2006-02-14

Well JITP, re. interface design vs. ‘just learning to program a computer’, I think we are talking past one another. As I said to domokato, both are necessary. My only issue was when you demean what is a vital part of making products people actually want to buy and use.

Also, I think I and everyone else in this thread understands that Jobs didn’t do all the R&D work credited to him and to Apple. The point is that he was the founder and director who chose who did what, and which designs and projects got green lighted and which did not. By all accounts he was a control freak who kept very close tabs on as much of the process underneath him as he could. This is not the case with most CEOs. And unlike most CEOs, by all accounts Jobs had very clear ideas of what he wanted the product line to be going forward. He wasn’t the sort of leader to stand back and let others direct the company.

One can and should credit many people for the incredible product line that Apple has produced over the past decades. But top of that list has to be Jobs himself. By crediting him we aren’t thereby insinuating that he made these products by himself. For each of them there will be other, lesser known geniuses. But again by all accounts Jobs played a central role in the development of all of Apple’s most famous product lines. If you read what those who worked with him say, they make that quite clear.

As you note, one could make similar claims about Edison, Ford, etc. etc. When they started out they were obviously more hands-on with their products, but as their businesses grew they had to delegate in order to function efficiently. All these CEOs were also company founders, who came up from the bottom, more or less from nothing, and built the companies by themselves. (Or as much ‘by themselves’ as anyone can do anything that scale).

When someone like Jony Ive dies, I hope that he is lauded for his incredible design efforts. That doesn’t take anything from Jobs anymore than lauding Jobs for his role in picking and nurturing Ive reduces any of what we should feel about Ive’s role.

Yesterday Steve Jobs died, which is why we’re on about him now.

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 October 2011 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2661
Joined  2011-04-24

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/under-god/post/westboro-baptist-church-uses-iphone-to-announce-steve-jobs-funeral-protest/2011/10/06/gIQAJqBjPL_blog.html

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 October 2011 05:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1805
Joined  2005-07-20
George - 06 October 2011 08:35 AM

It was an ape, not a monkey. And he has evolved.  grin And I usually pick on your avatar because I really don’t like it. Today, however, I did it to teach you a lesson, to defend Jobs and to let you know that the right-brained people think of themselves as highly as the autistic left-brained ones.

I didn’t attack Jobs, I’m just pointing out the facts.  And I’m happy that people where happy with him.  I relate to the tech industry because I create it, and I’m a bit offended that Jobs is getting far more credit than he deserves.  He’s being call hero on the TV news right now, hero?

 Signature 

I saw a happy rainbow recently.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 October 2011 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4132
Joined  2010-08-15
Chris Crawford - 06 October 2011 08:24 AM

Regarding the higher price of Macintosh: yes, Mac has always been higher priced. However, it is also a higher-quality product, in several dimensions. First, there’s hardware quality. I have owned Macs since the very first Mac back in 1984. In all that time, I have never had a single hardware failure of Apple equipment. Not one. Every piece of equipment I bought from Apple can still be turned on and will run just as well as it did when I bought it. I have had problems with peripherals, in particular hard drives that died. But never Apple equipment. How much does a hardware failure cost in terms of lost data?

Can I get a witness
YAH, YAH {isn’t that how they do it in the House of Commons?}


. . . . . . .    I too can drag my old iMac out of the closet, plug it in and click it on and play with Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator like the day I got the whole package about fifteen years ago.
Unfortunately, I can’t get them out of my old iMac and into anything modern.  [boohoo smilie] 
But, that’s another story,

As for the product quality: Chris Speaks The Truth,
{typed out on my crusty trusty MacBook}


Whoa, that reminds me, we have all these fun font options to play with thanks to Steve. . . 
though some of my pals here don’t share my enthusiasm for them cool smile
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


I might add once again, Steve sorry to see you leave so soon  

downer

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 October 2011 06:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4132
Joined  2010-08-15
traveler - 06 October 2011 10:30 AM

Well, let’s not forget that Apple ‘borrowed’ the WIMP interface from Xerox PARC.

True, but from my understanding of the story, Xerox also thought it was a dead-end and basically dropped it in the trash can.

Young Stevie came along and realized Holly Molly This Is The Key,

and then grabbed that football,
morphed it into more than anyone ever imagined,
and ran a 100 yard touch down.

. . . . . . . aand, let us not forget making the best TV commercial eever.

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 October 2011 07:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29
jump_in_the_pit - 06 October 2011 05:42 PM

I didn’t attack Jobs, I’m just pointing out the facts.

Yes, some of what you said here are facts, but you don’t seem to understand the impact Jobs has had on our society. I am a technophobe and Jobs’s genius allowed me to use computers without having to know anything about them. You may find pretty and friendly-to-use computers boring and unnecessary, but to me, a technophobe and a designer, it means the world.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 October 2011 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3121
Joined  2008-04-07
George - 06 October 2011 07:28 PM

I am a technophobe and Jobs’s genius allowed me to use computers without having to know anything about them. You may find pretty and friendly-to-use computers boring and unnecessary, but to me, a technophobe and a designer, it means the world.

I think that’s the big plus for millions of people. Jobs led Ives and others to create a tool for the masses to use rather than a hobby with which geeks could tinker.

 Signature 

Turn off Fox News - Bad News For America
(Atheists are myth understood)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 October 2011 09:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1995
Joined  2008-09-18

I think that’s the big plus for millions of people. Jobs led Ives and others to create a tool for the masses to use rather than a hobby with which geeks could tinker.

I am a technophobe and Jobs’s genius allowed me to use computers without having to know anything about them. You may find pretty and friendly-to-use computers boring and unnecessary, but to me, a technophobe and a designer, it means the world.

You guys have nailed it perfectly. THAT was what was so important about Mr. Jobs’ contribution: he humanized the technology. The while MS-DOS culture was not just geeky: it was intrusively geeky. That is, the MS-DOS community saw itself as the high priesthood of computing, the ultimate evaluator of all computer technology. They pushed the kind of stuff that they liked onto the rest of the world. It was amazing that people fell for that line; the MS-DOS geeks really were successful at establishing the myth that only the high priesthood could properly utilize personal computers, that “civilians” were expected to rely on the high priesthood for guidance in all things. This kind of thing had been going on since the mainframe years, and they were setting up the personal computer community to operate in the same fashion, with them at the top of the social pyramid.

Mr. Jobs’ blew that notion to hell. He wrested the computer away from the priesthood and threw the doors open to the broader community. The famous 1984 commercial was supposedly about IBM, but in a larger sense it was about the control of the technology. Apple really did send a sledge hammer through that entire mythology.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 October 2011 05:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  137
Joined  2011-01-10

“Your work is going to fill a large part of your life, and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven’t found it yet, keep looking. Don’t settle. As with all matters of the heart, you’ll know when you find it. And, like any great relationship, it just gets better and better as the years roll on. So keep looking until you find it. Don’t settle.” [Steve Jobs - Stanford commencement speech, June 2005]

Words to live by

 Signature 

“Gods don’t kill people. People with Gods kill people.”

– David Viaene

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 October 2011 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  350
Joined  2008-12-11

Tomorrow, Steve Jobs will push aside a boulder and introduce the iPhone 5.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 October 2011 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4465
Joined  2008-08-14
josh_karpf - 07 October 2011 08:37 AM

Tomorrow, Steve Jobs will push aside a boulder and introduce the iPhone 5.

Yes! Yes!  LOL

 Signature 

Row row row your boat gently down the stream.  Merrily Merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 October 2011 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3121
Joined  2008-04-07
josh_karpf - 07 October 2011 08:37 AM

Tomorrow, Steve Jobs will push aside a boulder and introduce the iPhone 5.

Not true. It will be the iPhone 4S. (iPhone 5 next year)

 Signature 

Turn off Fox News - Bad News For America
(Atheists are myth understood)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 October 2011 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1805
Joined  2005-07-20

I’m sad that people seem upset, maybe there are some simple misunderstandings though.  MS didn’t invent DOS.  Back then Apple and all the micro-computers used DOS.  MS-DOS geeks, high priesthood!?  Chris, don’t you know that Apple is reaching out to science since their OS became a Unix?  Its a good change for Apple. 

DOS had few capabilities because it was meant for weak computers, video cards were simply made to display text in one color, then they expanded to sixteen colors, then more, and more.  Back then no-one imagined the graphic and video abilities of today, some people have graphic cards with a better processor than their main microprocessor!  Back then engineers were only thinking of numbers as big as 640 thousand, and one million, they couldn’t dream of the numbers large enough to create todays computers numbers like 4 billion, and 1.84 billion times a billion times ten, engineers were discovering computers back then, they were learning anew.

The original and current idea of computers is that they are programmed, the point of computers is the bring automation home.  Most programs you use have been converted into an executable file (compiled).  The command prompt was the opposite in that it ran the commands immediately (interpreted), this is actually the more friendly idea.  The user was expected to memorize some commands with either technique, DOS has a couple of dozen (COPY, DIR, MKDIR, MOVE, etc.).  People weren’t taught that very well, and DOS didn’t have online help (again to save memory), it had printed help instead.

Now the GUI’s basically can a few commands together for you to use it one click, they give you a menu command, or a tool bar button… its basically the same idea, the differences being the GUI lists the commands for you (File | Copy, File | Save, File | Exit, Help | About, etc.), has decorations, and is not as flexible as the command line.  That flexibility is important, that’s what allows creativity and empowers people to automate their own little day-to-day chores.  The GUI is really just a decorative mask for what is really going on, and it is a good thing for new users.  Apple should have taught people that, they know that.

In the past, engineer’s choices were reasonable given the circumstances, even if the end user experience had a learning curve and help in the form of paper and a growing community.

[ Edited: 07 October 2011 10:27 AM by jump_in_the_pit ]
 Signature 

I saw a happy rainbow recently.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 October 2011 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1995
Joined  2008-09-18

JitP, you and I have very different professional opinions on the operations of user interfaces. My most important figure of merit is the number of verbs (commands, if you will) available to the user. In theory, any UI can have an infinite number of verbs, but in practice, the number is limited by human capabilities. Since CLI verbs must be memorized, only a dozen or two verbs are realistically accessible to the user of a CLI. The GUI does not require absolute memorization of the verb set, because it makes the verbs visible to the user. In practice, this makes roughly 100 verbs accessible to the user. Unfortunately, most applications these days offer more than a hundred verbs, so we see GUIs being pushed beyond their natural limits, and starting to gum up. It’s time to move on to the next step, the Linguistic User Interface, or LUI.

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 8
3