Hi forthetruth, you’ve put your responses within the quoted information, so it’s not showing up correctly. BBCode is like HTML code. You bracket information with [ quote ] and [ / quote ] to set it off as a quote.
(1) The deliberate, systematic, or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons in an attempt to force another person to yield information or to make a confession or for any other reason; “it required unnatural torturing to extract a confession.”
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO HELL AS USED IN THE BIBLE. THERE IS NO “EXTRACTING” OF INFORMATION
You didn’t read the definitions carefully, forthetruth. There is no extraction of information necessary. Extraction of information is one reason someone can be tortured. It can also be “for any other reason”, for example, punishment.
So, torture is “the deliberate, systematic, or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering for any reason”.
This is how hell is described in scripture.
[quote author=“forthetruth”] WHAT EXPIERENT HAS ANY SCIENCETIST DONE TO PROVE BLACK HOLES EXIST? WE KNOW NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN THERE. YOU BELIEVE WHAT THE ASTROMER IS TELLING YOU EVEN THOUGH YOU CAN’T DO THE EXPIERMENTS YOURSELF. WE ALSO KNOW THAT THESE THINGS CANNOT BE SEEN BUT MUST BE INFERRED FROM WHAT THE ASTROMER THINKS IS HAPPENING. YOU BELIEVE IN BLACK HOLES BECAUSE YOUR ATHORITY TELLS YOU. SO IT IS WITH MY AUTHORITY, CHRIST.
Well, to take one example, there are measurements of the veolcity of orbits around an object at the center of our galaxy that can only be explained by the existence of an object so small and massive that it would have to be a black hole. It is also an object that is invisible.
So while any of the astrophysicists working on the project would say they could be in error, the best explanation for the evidence at this point is that there is a black hole there.
OTOH, it seems you believe Christ is the son of god because he said he was. That is no evidence at all. Anyone could say he is the son of god, and indeed many people have done so. Do you believe them all?
[quote author=“forthetruth”] [quote author=“dougsmith”]And why should Christ be any authority anyhow?
BECAUSE WHAT THE NEW TESTAMENT SAYS ABOUT HIM. IF THE GOD OF THE BIBLE DOES IN FACT EXIST, THEN IT WOULD NOT BE UNREASONABLE TO BELIEVE HE COULD TAKE ON HUMAN FORM. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT CHRISTIANITY CLAIMS. NOW IF THIS IS TRUE, THIS WOULD MEAN THAT CHRIST WOULD BE THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE AUTHORITY EVER SINCE HE WOULD BE GOD.
Er, let’s take a look.
Is it moral to punish a child for the evil acts of its parents? No. So any god who did this would be acting wrongly. But that is the whole notion of “original sin”: punishing the children for the acts of their parents .. even their great, great, great, great ... (so on) ... grandparents.
And that is only if we assume that Adam and Eve existed. Since they didn’t exist (and there is all the evidence in the world that they didn’t), then “original sin” is punishing people for nothing.
And even if we assume that there is some unfathomable reason for “original sin”, god being perfectly good and all powerful would be able to erase it himself, directly, without needing Christ at all.
And even if he couldn’t, in what way does murdering your son save the world? It’s just murder for murder’s sake.
OTOH, if we look at it as a deluded man getting himself killed in Judaean Rome, it all makes sense. Christ thought he was the son of god, and got himself killed.
This is a fantasy story that doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense. There are other myths, for example the Greek myths, the Hindu myths, the Maya myths, the Native American myths, African myths, all are just as implausible, without the slightest bit of evidence for them. You have just chosen one of these false myths to rule your life.
Christ is one of many people appearing in ancient myths and stories.
[quote author=“forthetruth”] HAVE YOU EVER READ AND STUDIED THE NEW TESTAMENT?
Yes. Have you? Have you read and studied the Old Testament?
[quote author=“forthetruth”] THE CLAIMS OF THOSE BOOKS DON’T MAKE THE CLAIM WHAT THE NEW TESTAMENT DOES I.E. GOD IN HUMAN FORM. I HAVE STUDIED THE NEW TESTAMENT AND ITS QUITE COMPELLING.
The New Testament has a guy claiming he is god. (Actually, he was claiming he was the ‘son of Yahweh’, the Jewish god; all Jews believe they are the son of that Yahweh).
At any rate, so what? Anyone could write that. I could write that I was the son of god. Would you believe me?
And you are wrong to believe that the other holy books don’t claim that god has come to earth in human form. Just to take one example, the Greek myths are full of gods having human children. Hercules was a semi-divine mythical figure believed to be the son of Jupiter and a mortal woman.
[quote author=“forthetruth”][quote author=“dougsmith”]But this is no reason at all! You said: if the Christian belief about judgment and hell is right then we have reason to believe that hell exists! But that’s totally circular.
HOW SO? PEOPLE ARE CONDEMNED TO HELL AFTER THE JUDGEMENT. HELL IS THE RESULT OF BEING CONDEMNED FOR A PERSONS SINS.
Hell is supposedly the torture that god inflicts on us after judgment. I asked “What reason do we have to believe that hell exists?” You haven’t given any reason. You just say that “Christians believe hell exists.” Well, first of all, not every Christian believes hell exists. And secondly, so what? Hindus believe that we are reincarnated. Do you believe them just because they say so?
[quote author=“forthetruth”][quote author=“dougsmith”]At any rate, it would be unjust to punish someone for a finite crime with an infinite punishment of any kind. It would be even more unjust to punish someone with an infinity of torture. So on your own grounds of “justice”, hell can’t exist.
GOOD POINT. HOWEVER, THE SCRIPTURES ARE QUITE CLEAR THAT WHAT A PERSON DOES HERE DOES HAVE ETERNAL CONSQUENCES.
This gives us positive reason to believe that the scriptures are false. They say false things.
[quote author=“forthetruth”] IF GOD DOES NOT EXIST, HOW WOULD EXPLAIN WHY THE UNIVERSE CAME TO BE AND IS SO FINELY TUNED?
COUPLE WITH THAT, WHERE DID THE LAWS OF NATURE COME FROM AND WHY ARE THEY THE WAY THEY ARE?
THESE ARE JUST SOME OF THE QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR YOU. I’M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE UNVIVERSE COULD BE SOME FINELY TUNED BY RANDOM-NON INTELLIGENT FORCES.
The invocation of god is no better in this regard. If you say that god produced the laws of nature, who produced god?
If you say that god doesn’t need an explanation, well, neither do the laws of nature. They are what they are. Adding “god” doesn’t help.
Incidentally, I don’t agree that the universe is “finely tuned”. It is what it is. There is plenty of pain and sorrow in our universe, and as such is actually pretty “untuned”.
[quote author=“forthetruth”] IF YOU READ HOW GOD IS PORTRAYED IN THE BIBLE YOU FIND HE IS NOT LIKE US LIKE MOST UNBELIEVERS THINK HE IS. HE IS PORTRAYED AS ABSOLUTE HOLY AND ALL KNOWING JUST TO NAME A COUPLE OF CHARACTERISTICS.
He is portrayed in the old testament as a monster who advocated rape, murder, pillaging, and ethnic cleansing, just for starters.
Sure, he is called “holy” in the Bible, but gods in every mythic system are called holy. The Moslems call Allah “holy”. The Hindus call Vishnu and Shiva “holy”. The Greeks and Romans called their gods “holy”. Some people might even call Santa Claus “holy”. So what?