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Christian Youth Question
Posted: 15 November 2006 08:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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Forthetruth quote!
“I think, and i’m speculating here, that once we have left this world, our character is forever permanent.”


All you have done on every single post here is speculate. The bible is a speculation about the workings of the universe. ALL your ideas are based on ONE HUGE “BASLESS” SPECULATION. The sad thing is you dont seem to be able to get your mind around the concept but i know you better than that Forthetruth! You have shown remarkable ability to be able to judge other faiths and beliefs and see that holes in there argument but you are choosing NOT to even try and even question your own, which my friend makes you just another very, very adverage Zealot who falls way short of his real natural potential.

Sorry if i sound mean but im tired of Forthetruth coming here and wanting to talk but not wanting to even try and listen. I have no time for people like that.  :?

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"Let me get this strait what U are saying is that my parents are going to burn in hell, even though their jobs involve them saving lives every day, just because they chose not to follow your god? I dont blame them!!! Your god sounds like a real PRICK"

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Posted: 16 November 2006 03:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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Baronben hit the nail on the head, I’m afraid.

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Posted: 16 November 2006 05:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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I think there is a problem with the communication that is going on here between us atheists and forthetruth. The problem comes from the fact which baron mentions about speculation.

You see, we take all of our criticisms about religion from the scripture and the people who represent it. A believer cannot talk about the truth of the bible and then say, “Well that part isn’t literal, but this part is.” The only way you can do that is if you have a secret decoder ring from god.

Essentially, what right do believers have to cherrypick the word of god?

A believer must have some sort of authority to say, “that part is real, that one is not.” Otherwise, the believer is just speculating about the supernatural and thus has NO credibility, since even he doubts the credibilty of scripture.

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Posted: 16 November 2006 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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[quote author=“Jaik”]You see, we take all of our criticisms about religion from the scripture and the people who represent it. A believer cannot talk about the truth of the bible and then say, “Well that part isn’t literal, but this part is.” The only way you can do that is if you have a secret decoder ring from god.

Essentially, what right do believers have to cherrypick the word of god?

A believer must have some sort of authority to say, “that part is real, that one is not.” Otherwise, the believer is just speculating about the supernatural and thus has NO credibility, since even he doubts the credibilty of scripture.

It seems to me there are two potential stances a believer can take with regard to scripture:

(1) It is all literally true.

Virtually nobody actually takes this stance, because it ends up that you have to believe in stoning adulterers to death, killing people who work on the sabbath, etc.

You have to believe the world is 6,000 years old, and that Noah could build an ark that could contain two of every creature on earth. This is not even possible with today’s technology. Indeed, we don’t even have a good handle on how many species there are on the earth, but there clearly are millions, mostly insects. Further, it would entail preserving these creatures for a considerable length of time. One question out of millions: what would the carnivores have eaten during that time?

(2) Some of it is true and some of it is metaphor. This is how virtually all believers approach scripture. But then you are absolutely right, Jaik, the question is by what reasoning one makes the distinction between the true bits and the metaphorical bits?

It would seem that in essence most believers do this by basically using the generally available methods of reason (at least a little) to assume, e.g., that the sun didn’t really stand still in the sky (Joshua 10:12-14), or that Noah didn’t really build an ark that could carry two of every animal on earth. They also use the generally available beliefs about morality to throw out stuff on stoning adulterers and accepting slavery .

But once you allow that these methods are useful in distinguishing ‘true’ from ‘metaphorical’ in the Bible, one is no longer really relying on the Bible for one’s notion of history or morality.

And since these Biblical stories are patently false, and the morality pictured therein patently incorrect, of what use is it to follow such a book? Preserve the generally available methods of reason and morality, ditch the book.

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Posted: 16 November 2006 06:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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Noah could build an ark that could contain two of every creature on earth

Does the Bible actually say “two” of every creature? What if the species produces asexually? Why would you need “two” of them?

Also, the dinosaurs are gone because they didn’t make it onto Noah ark, I suppose (?), they must have been very immoral animals :twisted:. Fine. What about the trilobites (and other marine creatures that went extinct)? They lived in the water! They had no need to come aboard the ark to survive the “Great Flood.” What happened to them?

Where is forthetruth when you need him?

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Posted: 16 November 2006 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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[quote author=“George Benedik”]Does the Bible actually say “two” of every creature?

Yep. See here :

[quote author=“Genesis 6:19-21”]You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.

What is more, (Genesis 6:15): the ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high!

Once again, two of every creature on earth!

LOL

This is loony tunes stuff. Clearly cannot be taken literally in any sense.

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Posted: 16 November 2006 07:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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Noah (checking his list):
“...Aquifex aeolicus? Got it. Neisseria menengitidis? Got it? Vibrio cholerae? Got it…Now where the hell are Sulfolobous solfataricus and Methanocaldococcus jannaschi? Shem?”

Shem:
“Dunno, Dad! I was in charge of the bacteria. Archaea was Japheth’s responsibility.”

Japheth:
“Sorry, Dad. I was looking after Ham. Ham looks pretty sick. This morning I saw him hanging around Neisseria menengitidis...”

LOL

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Posted: 16 November 2006 12:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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[quote author=“dougsmith”][quote author=“George Benedik”]Does the Bible actually say “two” of every creature?

Yep. See here :

[quote author=“Genesis 6:19-21”]You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.

What is more, (Genesis 6:15): the ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high!

Once again, two of every creature on earth!

LOL

This is loony tunes stuff. Clearly cannot be taken literally in any sense.

It goes on to say seven of clean animals, only two of the unclean, so its really a lot more than just of every, and after all that he sacrifices them to God when they get out of the Ark.

You have to be careful with the NIV.  Read the footnotes:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=7&version=47

They changed it to two of every kind, but in reality its seven. The NIV changes texts in order to remove inconsistencies.

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Posted: 16 November 2006 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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It goes on to say seven of clean animals, only two of the unclean, so its really a lot more than just of every, and after all that he sacrifices them to God when they get out of the Ark.

It really does say that, rationalrevolution! :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

This solves one problem at least: now all the animals fit onto the ark!  LOL

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Posted: 16 November 2006 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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[quote author=“rationalrevolution”]It goes on to say seven of clean animals, only two of the unclean, so its really a lot more than just of every, and after all that he sacrifices them to God when they get out of the Ark.

Thanks for the info, rationalrevolution. Interesting. Of course, having seven pairs of ‘unclean’ PLUS a pair of each ‘clean’ makes it even more difficult to fit them all into the space alotted.

Also Noah only only sacrifices some of the clean animals. Presumably that’s why he has seven pairs of each of those: they can sacrifice a pair or two. Of course, after the sea journey they’d be pat I’m afraid.

LOL

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Posted: 17 November 2006 04:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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[quote author=“Jaik”]A believer must have some sort of authority to say, “that part is real, that one is not.” Otherwise, the believer is just speculating about the supernatural and thus has NO credibility, since even he doubts the credibilty of scripture.

Well, yes, it’s possible to use what they call “discernment” to tell the literal from the figurative.  And since they claim to have a “relationship” with God, presumably God guides them in this discernment.

The trouble is that some Christians rule out parts of the Bible which other Christians accept.  The issue of Hell, for example.  While “forthetruth” here says that All Christians have to believe in Hell, I have actually spoken to Christians who don’t.  They say that the Lake of Fire in the book of Revelations is for disposing of unbelievers, not tormenting them for all Eternity.

I like the fact that “forthetruth” is brave enough to come here and talk to us.  If we are patient, he can learn a lot from us.  And of course, we can learn from him, as well, if we’re not too stubborn. smile

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Posted: 17 November 2006 04:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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[quote author=“forthetruth”]God is not in the business of taking delight in seeing people suffer. Scripture is quite clear about this. His desires is for everyone to gain heaven.

Okay, cool.  Why does he send us into torment for all Eternity, then?  Or do you believe that when he creates the New Jerusalem for the believers, he will also create a world for us atheists to live on, where we will just have to live without him for all Eternity?  That doesn’t sound so bad, since we already live without him.  wink

I’m pretty dense with this formatting. Could briefly in simple steps show me how to do this? For example, on the bottom boxes, which ones should have a check in the box?

I don’t see what you’re doing wrong.  There are four check boxes just below the text box that your write in.  Have you disabled BBCcde or something?

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Posted: 17 November 2006 04:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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[quote author=“forthetruth”] I THINK BELIEVING THAT ADAM EXISTED MAKES FAR MORE SENSE THAN THINKING WE EVOLVED. IN THE STUFF I HAVE READ ON THIS TOPIC IN THE SECULAR SCIENCE ARTICLES, I HAVE SEEN AN CONLUSIVE EVIDENCE OR PROOF. I’VE SEEN PLENTY OF SPECULATION, BUT NO PROOF. ALSO, IT WILL TAKE MORE THAN BONES TO PROVE WE DESCENDANT FROM LOWER LIFE FORMS.

Just out of curiosity, if bones won’t do it, what would it take?  It seems as if you’re already convinced that the Genesis story is literally true, so you won’t accept any other alternative, no matter how much evidence there is.

When I was a teenager (back in the 70s), I didn’t like the theory of evolution either.  It seemed pretty stupid to me, but then, the only thing I knew about it was what my Sunday School teachers told me!  And obviously they were biased; they wanted me to believe Genesis!  Even my high school teachers would skip over the lessons on Evolution. Finally I had to find a book in the public library, and to my utter astonishment, I found that Evolution made sense!

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Posted: 17 November 2006 04:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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[quote author=“forthetruth”]  I WAS READING C S LEWIS WHO WAS AT ONE TIME AN ATHIEST. HE DEALT WITH YOUR OBJECTION. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, HE AN OXFOD PROF WHO WAS VERY FAMILAR WITH MYTHS AND HE SAID THAT THE GOSPELS ARE NOT THAT KIND OF LITERATURE.

And I was reading Randel Helms, who is also a professor of English, and he says that the Gospels ARE mythical fiction.  So my “expert” calls your “expert”.  And I can raise Graham Lloyd, who says the same thing.
[quote author=“forthetruth”] IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT “WHO PRODUCED GOD” THE SCRIPTURES TEACHES THAT HE IS ETERNAL I.E. HAS ALWAYS BEEN. THIS IS WHAT IS CALLED A “NECESSARY BEING”. HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN.

But your whole point is that complex things do not come into being without an intelligent creator.  Well, with your concept of God, you have at least one example of something which didn’t need to be created.  So how can you say the Universe needed a creator?

LETS SAY THE UNVERSE IS LIKE A HOUSE. IF I ASKED YOU ABOUT HOW THE HOUSE YOU LIVE IN CAME TO BE, WHAT WOULD YOU TELL ME? WOULD YOU SAY IT CAME ABOUT BY “MINDLESS-PURPOSELESS PROCESSES” OR THAT IT WAS BUILT BY SOME INTELLIGNCE I.E CONTRACTOR?
NOW WHEN YOU APPLY THIS ANAOLGY TO THE UNIVERSE, WHICH IS FAR MORE COMPLEX THAN A HOUSE, WHICH WOULD MAKE THE MOST SENSE TO YOU?

The analogy is apt, because we KNOW that human beings build houses.  Most of us have first-hand experience, if only with birdhouses.  But the intelligence—the human being—still CAME FROM somewhere, didn’t he?  He was born, he grew, he was nurtured by his parents, and someone else, ultimately, had to teach him how to build a house.  Where does God fit, in this analogy?  Is he the human who builds the house, or is he the carpenter who taught the human to build?  And who taught him?  As you see, we have opened up an Infinite Regresssion!

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Posted: 17 November 2006 08:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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What an interesting discussion I started…  a lot longer than I expected it to be.  Doug, you have the virtue of patience.

On a plane the other day I sat next to a Turkish fellow that had the capacity for great humanist conversation.  I didn’t realize that Turkey has a long history of secularism.  The Turk was astounded to hear that I wasn’t a Christian nutjob.  Very rare for this Okie to run across someone who strongly in people rather than dogma.

I noticed something very odd as I looked out the window of the plane at 30,000 ft.  The horizon seemed to appear curved rather than straight.  Must’ve been some kind of optical illusion since we all know that the Earth is flat.

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