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Posted: 17 October 2011 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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traveler - 17 October 2011 10:34 AM
FreeInKy - 17 October 2011 09:44 AM

It may or may not be heaven for the martyr but one thing is certain: it sure won’t be heaven for the poor virgins.

Why not? Those guys blew off their private parts. Nothing for the virgins to fear.  wink

BTW, I have heard that the translation is better given as “many,” not a specific number. It’s like when we say a million, but just mean a bunch.

Makes sense. Similarly, I hear the number of the Beast was also mis-translated in the New Testament book of Revelation. It should be 616. So there will be a lot of Fundies refusing to accept their 666 mark but who might fall for 616. Funny huh?

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Posted: 17 October 2011 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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I believe that the translation is 72 grapes of crystal clarity. Does that mean 72 virgin grapes? And you all DO know that knocking the Koran is punishable by death? Skeptics unite, you have nothing to lose but your lives, infidels! big surprise

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 17 October 2011 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Blythe - 17 October 2011 10:33 AM
StephenLawrence - 16 October 2011 10:45 PM
Occam. - 16 October 2011 10:27 PM

Wow, they must be really good salesmen to talk young guys into blowing themselves up for 72 prunes in the afterlife.  smile

I would guess that if that were the case, the 72 virgins story would have been more widely debunked.


Occam

I don’t think it would be. Which sceptics have any interest in debunking this story?

The other story that potentially needs debunking is the very idea that they do it for reward in the afterlife. That seems damaging because it deflects our attention from understanding why they feel strongly enough about their cause to be prepared to die for it and to harm others for it.

Stephen

Theres a very good TED talk on this, an insight into the way young boys are indoctrinated. Ill try to find it and post it here.
Found it http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/sharmeen_obaid_chinoy_inside_a_school_for_suicide_bombers.html

I see. Looks like religion plays a part in it, as well as practical financial reasons. I think if religion was taken out of the equation, it might be pretty hard to get people to blow themselves up, not to mention there would be no concept of “infidel” in the first place…

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Posted: 17 October 2011 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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You mean there are no atheist soldiers who are willing to die “for the greater cause”? Anybody who wants to understand what’s going on here should read Atran’s book. (But I know nobody will.)

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Posted: 17 October 2011 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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George - 17 October 2011 11:51 AM

You mean there are no atheist soldiers who are willing to die “for the greater cause”? Anybody who wants to understand what’s going on here should read Atran’s book. (But I know nobody will.)

Absolutely there are many atheists who are willing to die for a “greater cause.”
But you are wrong in you parenthetic statement - I just downloaded the Kindle version and will begin reading it in a moment.  cheese

Edit to add: I’m talking about “In Gods We Trust…” Is that the book you refer to?

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Posted: 17 October 2011 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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traveler - 17 October 2011 12:56 PM

Edit to add: I’m talking about “In Gods We Trust…” Is that the book you refer to?

No, I was referring to Talking to the Enemy.

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Posted: 17 October 2011 01:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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George - 17 October 2011 01:20 PM
traveler - 17 October 2011 12:56 PM

Edit to add: I’m talking about “In Gods We Trust…” Is that the book you refer to?

No, I was referring to Talking to the Enemy.

Doh!

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Posted: 17 October 2011 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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George - 17 October 2011 11:51 AM

You mean there are no atheist soldiers who are willing to die “for the greater cause”? Anybody who wants to understand what’s going on here should read Atran’s book. (But I know nobody will.)

Yes of course George, people give of themselves, even their lives for all sorts of causes; fire, floods, accidents, kidneys, livers, national defense, exploration, and just plain fun (X games).
But with religion what is the “greater cause”? What is the spititual justification for harmful action on a physical level? There is no immediate threat of life and limb between beliefs.
Me, “I don’t believe in God”.  Muslim, “You dont? Then you die and I’ll be happy to die trying to kill you, all for the greater glory of God”.
Me, “gimme a break, will you?”

[ Edited: 17 October 2011 03:40 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 17 October 2011 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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The Muslims don’t blow themselves up for God, they do it for their people. They may say they do it in the name of their god, just like our soldiers who fight for their people do so in the name democracy, freedom, etc. Different cultures, different justifications. The fundamental reasons, however, don’t differ much.

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Posted: 17 October 2011 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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George - 17 October 2011 03:42 PM

The Muslims don’t blow themselves up for God, they do it for their people. They may say they do it in the name of their god, just like our soldiers who fight for their people do so in the name democracy, freedom, etc. Different cultures, different justifications. The fundamental reasons, however, don’t differ much.

True, Iraq was a perfect example.  It is the leaders which have the power to sway public opinion. Orwell’s 1982 comes to mind.

ps. I like you better his way, must be the glasses…. cheese

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Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
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Posted: 17 October 2011 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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LOL That must be the worst compliment I ever got, Writ4U. BTW, those are binoculars, not glasses: I am watching you all… cool grin

[ Edited: 17 October 2011 04:29 PM by George ]
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Posted: 17 October 2011 04:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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George - 17 October 2011 03:42 PM

The Muslims don’t blow themselves up for God, they do it for their people.

Yes, I agree with that. But my point was that it would be harder to get them to blow themselves up without religion.

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Posted: 17 October 2011 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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domokato - 17 October 2011 04:41 PM
George - 17 October 2011 03:42 PM

The Muslims don’t blow themselves up for God, they do it for their people.

Yes, I agree with that. But my point was that it would be harder to get them to blow themselves up without religion.

I am sure they would find something else. Look at the Japanese Kamikaze or the Tamil Tigers. No, religion is not the cause here.

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Posted: 17 October 2011 06:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Kamikazing for one’s national honor I can support. Suicide bombing because (or partially because) one is deluded with promises of rewards in the afterlife, I cannot support.

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“What people do is they confuse cynicism with skepticism. Cynicism is ‘you can’t change anything, everything sucks, there’s no point to anything.’ Skepticism is, ‘well, I’m not so sure.’” -Bill Nye

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Posted: 17 October 2011 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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domokato - 17 October 2011 06:20 PM

Kamikazing for one’s national honor I can support. Suicide bombing because (or partially because) one is deluded with promises of rewards in the afterlife, I cannot support.

But now you’re changing the subject.

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