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Moammar Gadhafi is dead
Posted: 20 October 2011 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Is this good for the people of Libya?  Only time can answer that but I do have concerns as too often we have seen those hailed as saviors become the worst of tyrants Hopefully.  Present Obama congratulated the people on winning their revolution but the question remains, are they free?

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Posted: 21 October 2011 05:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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I had several reactions. My first was dismay at the general level of chaos from the videos of the scene. There was obviously no one in charge here; the rebels are basically just an armed mob. That’s not good for Libya, because now the time has come to put down the guns and start talking—and these people will not put down their guns. My guess is that Libya will disintegrate into some kind of civil war, from which a new government will emerge. Will that new government be democratic? I hope so, but I have no confidence that this will be the outcome.

My second reaction was, was his murder a good thing for Libya, all things considered? Yes, we’d prefer a trial before we hang him, if only to get the facts out, but there’s something to be said for putting the past behind you—and killing Qaddafi sure put him into the past.

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Posted: 21 October 2011 06:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Chris Crawford - 21 October 2011 05:57 PM

but there’s something to be said for putting the past behind you—and killing Qaddafi sure put him into the past.

As for the rest we shall see,
I despair when thinking of all the good people killed during all this crap.  nightmares of Mad Max playing in our heads . . .

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Posted: 21 October 2011 07:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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My reaction when I saw the violent scene was a recolection of video where a bunch of chimps murdered another chimp from a neighboring tribe. Scary stuff. I think we get an instant idea of how primitive those people still are.

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Posted: 21 October 2011 10:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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George - 21 October 2011 07:47 PM

I think we get an instant idea of how primitive those people still are.

I think you kid yourself if you don’t understand that’s hiding under our own skins also.

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Posted: 22 October 2011 12:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I watched some of the footage of Gadhaffi being beaten and killed; pretty vicious stuff.  I think anybody would do that to someone they hated so much; the rebels seem like they are “drunk” on power, and if they take control it might not get much better.

[ Edited: 22 October 2011 03:09 AM by mid atlantic ]
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Posted: 22 October 2011 12:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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George - 21 October 2011 07:47 PM

My reaction when I saw the violent scene was a recolection of video where a bunch of chimps murdered another chimp from a neighboring tribe. Scary stuff. I think we get an instant idea of how primitive those people still are.

I do not like this word in this context. citizenschallenge.pm is right.

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Posted: 22 October 2011 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 21 October 2011 10:45 PM
George - 21 October 2011 07:47 PM

I think we get an instant idea of how primitive those people still are.

I think you kid yourself if you don’t understand that’s hiding under our own skins also.

Not under my skin. And if you don’t believe me you can compare Prague Autumn with Arab Spring.

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Posted: 22 October 2011 05:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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My reaction when I saw the violent scene was a recolection of video where a bunch of chimps murdered another chimp from a neighboring tribe. Scary stuff. I think we get an instant idea of how primitive those people still are.

Wade points this out in his book Reclaiming the past. He states that the only two species who knowingly kill their fellow members are chimps and humans. I felt the same revulsion when I saw a bloody figure in the truck being beaten by a wild mob. I couldn’t tell who it was. He was beaten to a pulp. They should have kept him alive for a trial. It would at least shown the world that someone was in charge. Now on to the next strong man or theocrat.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 22 October 2011 05:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Jack, what book is that? I have never heard of it.

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Posted: 22 October 2011 07:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Mussolini wasn’t treated with much respect either.  It’s not nice when mob mentality takes over.  I would like to think that we in the West have risen above it, but somehow I don’t think that there is a gene for brutality that we have lost and the Libyans have kept.  It wasn’t that long ago that ‘Strange fruit’ hung from the branches of American trees.

There are millions of decent Libyans.  Unfortunately because they are decent, they won’t necessarily have the will to do what is necessary to grab power.  The sort of people who do have the will to take power are often not the people who should have it.  That is the tragedy of so much of ‘Black’ (or sub-Saharan if you insist) Africa.  I hope the Libyans avoid it.  Only time will tell, I suppose.

[ Edited: 22 October 2011 07:22 AM by keithprosser2 ]
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Posted: 22 October 2011 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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I am sure most people will agree that genetics have a lot to do with the fact that Pitt bulls are more violent than Poodles or Bonobos less violent than Chimps. But for some reason in humans evolution stops at the neck.

BTW, Musollini’s execution was obviously much more “civilized” than Gaddafi’s murder.

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Posted: 22 October 2011 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Here’s another thought regarding Mr. Qaddafi’s death: this was completely predictable once he turned down the last offer of surrender. Before Tripoli fell, there was still an offer that he would be allowed to live in exile (I believe Saudi Arabia would have offered him refuge) if he surrendered. Such a deal would have saved thousands of lives. It was the only reasonable option left to Mr. Qaddafi. Yet he turned it down. Clearly he believed that he could win, yet his defeat was inevitable once NATO stepped in, and was obvious to everybody long before Tripoli fell.

How could anybody make so horribly wrong a decision? Mr. Hussein did not have such an option: once military operations began, he lost the opportunity for survival through surrender. In Tunisia, the dictator chose surrender with life. Mr. Mubarak wasn’t given a choice: the military threw him out. The only conclusion I can reach is that Mr. Qaddafi was out of touch with reality, an error that cost him his life. I can understand people making that kind of mistake in a fast emergency, but he had months to assess the situation.

The conclusion for the rest of us is sobering: people are capable of making monstrously incorrect decisions, decisions that cost them their own lives and the lives of others. Something to consider when assessing political opinions here in the USA.

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Posted: 22 October 2011 08:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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George - 22 October 2011 07:48 AM

I am sure most people will agree that genetics have a lot to do with the fact that Pitt bulls are more violent than Poodles or Bonobos less violent than Chimps. But for some reason in humans evolution stops at the neck.

No, it does not stop at the neck. But what is above the neck is much more flexible relative to non human animals. You do as if the brain does not change due do what history it has. The extreme of your position is that a broken leg is pre-programmed in the genes. I suppose you can support your position with scientific sources that show the differences between Libyans and the Czech? And what about Germans? Danes? Might it be that the oppression of the Libyans was much more bloody than that of the Czech?

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Posted: 22 October 2011 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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GdB - 22 October 2011 08:50 AM

Might it be that the oppression of the Libyans was much more bloody than that of the Czech?

Of course it was. The more violent people are, the more violent the oppression will be.

BTW, your position implying that genetics has nothing to do with violence is more extreme than mine. As far as your ridicules example of braking a leg goes, no, genetics doesn’t determine if you get run over by a bus, but it will impact the chances of that incident resulting in fracturing your leg. Blacks, who have have stronger and thicker bones, are less likely to suffer from osteoporosis. But that’s fine I guess: bones are not the brain, right?

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Posted: 22 October 2011 09:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Actually, I might be wrong on the genetics not determining the chances of getting run over by a bus. Next time you go to Mexico, take a bus tour to see what I mean.

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