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Homosexuality
Posted: 22 August 2012 12:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 121 ]
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George, please don’t hijack this thread with another nature/nurture debate.  Your views seem tp be that essentially everything that we do, we would do regardless of our experiences in life.  And this is an extreme perspective.

If you are being genuine about this particular issue and not just trying to advance your agenda that everything is biological, it would be better to present your evidence that shows that homosexuality is completely biological.

In this case, you are lacking imagination, if you cannot recognize that even a person who is completely averse to homosexual behavior, could not, given the right (preferably positive) contingencies, engage in homosexual behavior, and if those (preferably positive) contingencies were brought to bear often enough, the homosexual behavior would become less aversive to that person, over time.  (I say preferably postitive contingencies because the change would probably go more smoothly.  But even with negative contingencies controlling the engagement in the aversive behavior, a person would eventually desensitize to the averseveness of the act, given they were not allowed to escape or avoid it).

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Posted: 22 August 2012 05:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 122 ]
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Scott Mayers - 20 August 2012 09:42 PM

Much of the debate circles around the legal definition of “marriage” that the political establishment differentiates from “unions”. The religious argue that gay people can still have all the same rights guaranteed through an official union. It is usually gay people who are religious who want to get married within a traditional religious ceremony who want to be officiated as being married, rather than just a secular union. If, and only if, the laws are identical, do I think that it is important either way if you get the same official advantages. I think the solution would be easier to make if the government just took marriage, as a legal term, and just use union for everyone. Then.

`
Man, all I can say is…...I’m so glad I live in Canada, where this battle was fought and won ages ago and we just have ‘marriage’, period.

All this nonsense of ‘marriage’ vs ‘union’, and all just to mollify a group with a presumptuous sense of entitlement who seem to think that they have some kind of ‘ownership’ of marriage and that what they have to say has some special ‘weight’.

So glad we don’t have to concern ourselves with appeasing religious bigots on this issue.

`

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Posted: 22 August 2012 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]
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Not to worry, Tim, I have plenty of imagination. Unlike you, though, I am aware of the times when I am speculating and when I am following what evidence tells us. Regarding this topic, the little evidence we have available (twin studies), points to the fact that homosexuality is a result of bilogical factors. If you are aware of any evidence (not your imagination) proving otherwise, please show it to me.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 06:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]
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George - 22 August 2012 05:19 AM

Not to worry, Tim, I have plenty of imagination. Unlike you, though, I am aware of the times when I am speculating and when I am following what evidence tells us. Regarding this topic, the little evidence we have available (twin studies), points to the fact that homosexuality is a result of bilogical factors. If you are aware of any evidence (not your imagination) proving otherwise, please show it to me.

My speculating is based on my understanding of the basic laws of behavior and the use of deductive reasoning.  It is a critical thinking skill.  You should try it sometime.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]
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Yeah, maybe I should give it a try. It seemed to have worked out for Malcolm Gladwell and Dr. Phill, so why not, eh? But no, thanks. I’ll stick to evidence for now.

[ Edited: 22 August 2012 07:20 AM by George ]
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Posted: 22 August 2012 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]
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Actually, Tim, you could have easily (at least tried to) prove(d) your point: After a quick Google search, I find that adopted boys who have gay brothers, have a higher chance of being gay themselves when compared with the general public. I am not sure what this means, but it could be that nurture has, after all, something to do with it. But I would have to look at it more carefully to see how accurate these numbers are, and frankly, I don’t really feel like it now. It is up to you to do the homework to defend your theory after all.

[ Edited: 22 August 2012 07:39 AM by George ]
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Posted: 22 August 2012 08:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]
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George - 22 August 2012 07:13 AM

Yeah, maybe I should give it a try. It seemed to have worked out for Malcolm Gladwell and Dr. Phill, so why not, eh? But no, thanks. I’ll stick to evidence for now.

Please, even if you hate me, never compare me to Dr. Phil.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]
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No, I don’t hate you at all. But yes, that was mean of me. Sorry.  grin

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Posted: 22 August 2012 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 129 ]
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George - 22 August 2012 07:27 AM

Actually, Tim, you could have easily (at least tried to) prove(d) your point: After a quick Google search, I find that adopted boys who have gay brothers, have a higher chance of being gay themselves when compared with the general public. I am not sure what this means, but it could be that nurture has, after all, something to do with it. But I would have to look at it more carefully to see how accurate these numbers are, and frankly, I don’t really feel like it now. It is up to you to do the homework to defend your theory after all.

I don’t need to do homework.  I’ve done my graduate level homework in Applied Behavior Analysis, along with regular post graduate training.  I know that people learn from experiences and that certain sets of experiences can even change underlying preferences or aversions.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 130 ]
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George - 22 August 2012 08:23 AM

No, I don’t hate you at all. But yes, that was mean of me. Sorry.  grin

Apology accepted. smile

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Posted: 22 August 2012 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 131 ]
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TimB - 22 August 2012 08:32 AM
George - 22 August 2012 07:27 AM

Actually, Tim, you could have easily (at least tried to) prove(d) your point: After a quick Google search, I find that adopted boys who have gay brothers, have a higher chance of being gay themselves when compared with the general public. I am not sure what this means, but it could be that nurture has, after all, something to do with it. But I would have to look at it more carefully to see how accurate these numbers are, and frankly, I don’t really feel like it now. It is up to you to do the homework to defend your theory after all.

I don’t need to do homework.  I’ve done my graduate level homework in Applied Behavior Analysis, along with regular post graduate training.  I know that people learn from experiences and that certain sets of experiences can even change underlying preferences or aversions.

Sure, but I think it depends what kind of underlying preferences we are talking about here. David Reimer’s experience of growing up as a girl never really changed his underlying preference of wanting to be a man. I grew up eating meat, but it was the experience of running into a Buddhist down-down Toronto that put me on a path toward vegetarianism. Sometimes experiences matter, sometimes they don’t. But you already said it yourself, when you wrote that, “certain sets of experiences can even change underlying preferences or aversions.”

The question, however, remains. Does nature have any effect on our sexual preference? Which “certain sets of experiences” would be the ones that can potentially steer us in the direction of being gay or straight? Friends, family, movies, diet? Is there any evidence to prove it? Etc., etc.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 01:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 132 ]
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George - 22 August 2012 07:27 AM

Actually, Tim, you could have easily (at least tried to) prove(d) your point:

Can’t let this pass completely unnoticed.  grin

Stephen

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Posted: 22 August 2012 02:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 133 ]
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I think you need help, Stephen. Really.  grin

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Posted: 22 August 2012 04:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 134 ]
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George - 22 August 2012 09:12 AM
TimB - 22 August 2012 08:32 AM
George - 22 August 2012 07:27 AM

Actually, Tim, you could have easily (at least tried to) prove(d) your point: After a quick Google search, I find that adopted boys who have gay brothers, have a higher chance of being gay themselves when compared with the general public. I am not sure what this means, but it could be that nurture has, after all, something to do with it. But I would have to look at it more carefully to see how accurate these numbers are, and frankly, I don’t really feel like it now. It is up to you to do the homework to defend your theory after all.

I don’t need to do homework.  I’ve done my graduate level homework in Applied Behavior Analysis, along with regular post graduate training.  I know that people learn from experiences and that certain sets of experiences can even change underlying preferences or aversions.

Sure, but I think it depends what kind of underlying preferences we are talking about here. David Reimer’s experience of growing up as a girl never really changed his underlying preference of wanting to be a man. I grew up eating meat, but it was the experience of running into a Buddhist down-down Toronto that put me on a path toward vegetarianism. Sometimes experiences matter, sometimes they don’t. But you already said it yourself, when you wrote that, “certain sets of experiences can even change underlying preferences or aversions.”

The question, however, remains. Does nature have any effect on our sexual preference? Which “certain sets of experiences” would be the ones that can potentially steer us in the direction of being gay or straight? Friends, family, movies, diet? Is there any evidence to prove it? Etc., etc.

Your contention is that experiences NEVER have an impact on anyone’s sexual preferences for gender and that sexual preferences for gender are always and completely biologically determined.  We agree that sexual gender preferences are biologically determined.  We just don’t agree that they are always and completely biologically determined.

One example of a set of circumstances in which the biologically determined sexual gender preference could be changed, to some degree, is with a child (born to have heterosexual preferences) that is repeatedly over time, engaged with in sexual relations, by the same sex parent.  That child could develop to have a greater tolerance for same sex behavior with others later in life, than he or she otherwise would have.  (This is an extreme example, but I am just trying to get the point across.)  There are a myriad of other potential sets of experiences that could possibly have an impact on sexual preference for gender. 

No, I don’t have evidence that I can provide to you to show that this has happened.  But it is consistent with basic behavioral principles that it can and does happen.

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Posted: 22 August 2012 09:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 135 ]
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George - 22 August 2012 02:50 PM

I think you need help, Stephen. Really.  grin

You know George I dunno how to take this.

But your comment really was quite interesting in the light of the other discussion that Tim is involved in too and I think it was well worth noticing.

Stephen

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