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Homosexuality
Posted: 27 August 2012 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 151 ]
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Scott Mayers - 27 August 2012 01:55 AM

In Canada, because we do not have a law restricting an establishment of religion, the term, “marriage” can be still considered a legally religious term (and is) and be used politically to make laws as well.

`
But it could never be determined/considered to be an exclusively religious term. 

And that’s the crucial issue. 

Otherwise, we’d be looking at atheists not being allowed to get ‘married’ (which is the case in Israel, for example, unless one of them is a believer/member of a religion).  Do you seriously think that that could be a possibility in the Canada of today?  (i know, with Stephen Harper at the helm, all bets are off!)  Besides, there hasn’t even been a ripple of an ‘outcry’ against same sex marriage since it was made legal almost a decade ago.  There are some who still disagree, to be sure, but overall, the entire thing went (astonishingly) smoothly.  It was made legal and life went on with little to no backlash….......of course, if any church/synagogue/mosque, etc had been forced or pressured to accommodate ssm, there would have been an uproar, no doubt.  But since that wasn’t the case, it was a pretty smooth transition.

`

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Posted: 06 September 2012 07:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 152 ]
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TimB - 27 August 2012 10:22 AM

In the U.S. currently it appears to be left to the states to determine the definition of marriage and civil unions and who can or can’t have either, or who will be recognized as having either. Most people who vote on this issue in most states, side against gay marriage.  The diifferent laws in different states, must complicate things tremendously for those whom this issue effects.

The good news is that people who personally know someone who is gay tend to be in favor of gay marriage.  So as more people become open and matter of fact about their homosexuality, opinions and eventually laws will continue to change in favor of gay marriage.

Yeah, I guess I have to remember that the Constitution of the United States is one of the Federal institutions and represents the protection and representation of those that they can assure those under their expected governing capacity. The States have stronger differentiating powers in a republic.

Axegrrl - 27 August 2012 01:03 PM
Scott Mayers - 27 August 2012 01:55 AM

In Canada, because we do not have a law restricting an establishment of religion, the term, “marriage” can be still considered a legally religious term (and is) and be used politically to make laws as well.

`
But it could never be determined/considered to be an exclusively religious term. 

And that’s the crucial issue. 

Otherwise, we’d be looking at atheists not being allowed to get ‘married’ (which is the case in Israel, for example, unless one of them is a believer/member of a religion).  Do you seriously think that that could be a possibility in the Canada of today?  (i know, with Stephen Harper at the helm, all bets are off!)  Besides, there hasn’t even been a ripple of an ‘outcry’ against same sex marriage since it was made legal almost a decade ago.  There are some who still disagree, to be sure, but overall, the entire thing went (astonishingly) smoothly.  It was made legal and life went on with little to no backlash….......of course, if any church/synagogue/mosque, etc had been forced or pressured to accommodate ssm, there would have been an uproar, no doubt.  But since that wasn’t the case, it was a pretty smooth transition.

`

Actually, the term “marriage”, in Canada, is still purposely worded to be religious due to how the terms of religion have been ambiguously defined in our Constitution. The understanding is that Atheism, to the religious delegates involved in making the constitution, no doubt felt that it is just another form of religion. And yet, the politicians want to also appear to appeal to non-religious or any religious at the same time. Otherwise, the Constitution would not have the preamble, “Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:” With this wording, and due to a given meaning of “founded” as originated, the impression to most is clearly that God is the basis of the Canadian Constitution. The delegates intended this. If it wasn’t necessary, it shouldn’t have been necessary data to include it! But if pressed by non-religious or differing religions, the lawyers can say, “The main verb of the sentence,‘founded’, means that religion was just one of the historical basis along with the rule of law that contributed to the ideas that went into formulating the Constitution…just as you can base a real idea founded on a romantic fantasy.”

Since “marriage” is based on this, it appears to be neutral depending on who you are and how you interpret the definitions. Since the definitions are perfectly ambiguous to mean differing things, everyone naturally picks the meaning that they want it to mean. So even if they popularly disagree with other people’s behaviors, they don’t complain because they think they somehow agreed to the same laws that enabled it. It’s mass psychology in action. It is like a popular song with vague words that appeal to everyone. Each person interprets it in their own way and thinks they know what it is about, usually based on themselves, and buys the artist’s albums. All the fans go to concert and cheer and wave in harmony but if you were to really ask any random group of five people to interpret the words of that particular song, they might severely disagree. Which brings to mind why some musicians tend to despise fans. (Think Pink Floyd’s The Wall)

Our law accidentally favors a lot of us a lot of the time. And I guess this is good…for now. The American Constitution has to be handled differently because of their first Amendment, though.  They could try rhetorical tricks like we did here but they are more in tune to that type of manipulation and it wouldn’t go far. (At least, I think they are.)

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Posted: 20 November 2012 03:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 153 ]
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I am ever so grateful for all the insightful and well-intended responses in this thread (that started a year ago). I sincerely thank you all, it has truly done my emotions well smile

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Posted: 20 November 2012 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 154 ]
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Glad we could help, FD. Please visit more often.

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Posted: 05 December 2012 02:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 155 ]
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Homosexuality and Islam - An Islamic Perspective:

There has been a lot of discussion lately on the issue of Homosexuality. There is a tendency, ever so slight, among some of us to make this behavior acceptable in the name of fairness and tolerance. On the other hand there are those who would suggest summary execution of those engaging in homosexual behavior. This confusing message can be a danger in that it can erode and dilute some of our basic values. Let me preface my suggestions to develop an effective way to address this very sensitive and critical issue, with some background information.
Homosexuality is, of course, not a new behavior. It has existed in practically all cultures and among all people, but usually in fewer numbers and in secrecy, not with an “in your face” attitude as it does in the west now. Unfortunately this is the reality of the times we live in, especially in the western societies, and we need to deal with it. The Homosexual, or the gay as they call themselves, in an attempt to polish their image, constitute a very active and powerful lobby group. They have strong political and social ties and access to the elites of the society, especially in the US, up to and including President Clinton. Even though majority of the people in the US believe that homosexual behavior is wrong, it is intriguing, but never the less remarkable, that the homosexuals have gained public acceptance for their behavior in a very short period of time. This acceptance by the US public is a reflection of people who are committed to their cause and give due thought, time, money and effort to achieve their purpose, though a wrong one. The homosexual’s agenda is a very simple one to make their behavior acceptable as NORMAL, and in the process recruit more to their ranks. They have a sophisticated and multifaceted campaign to achieve their goals. These include active participation in social and political issues other than their immediate ones, like feeding the hungry and dealing with human right issues. They promote their agenda through legislation, presenting themselves as victims of prejudice and discrimination, helping to enact the gender discrimination act, legalizing and securing full benefits for same gender marriage, funding research similar to the hypothalamus issue (which shows a genetic propensity to homosexuality), teaching at even kindergarten level that the two-male or the two female can make a family unit which is an acceptable alternative that is even comparable to the traditional MOM and POP family, religious and moral blurring on the stand by establishing gay churches and synagogues, etc. etc. The most effective milestone in the homosexual movement, was probably when in 1976 the American Psychiatric Association (APA) declared that homosexuality was no longer to be considered an illness but was to be regarded merely as an orientation or a sexual variant. The rest, as they say, is history. This made a lot of people very suspicious of the scientific community, who went against known scientific data that the homosexual behavior can be changed. Even though the APA has taken an official stand, this debate continues and many prominent members of APA oppose this stand. Again this has happened and continues to happen even in religious circles, amongst Muslims and others, where experts or priests make pronouncements in favor of those from whom they stand to gain favors at the expense of the masses and against clear moral and/or scientific stands supporting the contrary or opposite views.
The strength of the movement was demonstrated by the outbreak of AIDS. Up to that point in history, there was a standard to deal with ALL communicable diseases. The scientifically developed and tested system that is in place to contain communicable diseases was bypassed with political muscle. As a result, the disease spread very rapidly and affected many innocent lives through blood supply and other preventable methods whose implementation was suppressed politically. AIDS, a communicable disease up to that point that mainly affected the homosexuals, was forced to become a political issue and became the exception to the rule. The innocent were put at risk and their lives made a living hell, some were even lost just for a political gain. The lie that is being promoted is that AIDS is equally rampant amongst the heterosexuals as it is amongst the homosexuals. Statistics contradicts this statement.
The homosexual movement has a strong network of support groups who encourage each other to “come out of the closet”, thus advancing and actively promoting this behavior. They thrive on conflict amongst the family and/or community members. They have been known to provide moral, psychological, social, and financial support to any one of their own who is making the transition into their lifestyle or who is “coming out of the closet”, so to speak.
They use proven methodologies in changing social acceptability and behavior towards themselves. Like the shows on television, they will introduce the radical issue which will provoke a hue and cry from all quarters the first time out, the second time there is less and in subsequent times the opposition will die out. They then discuss, or frame the issue as it is known, to convince us of their legitimacy and how wrong, narrow minded and bigots all these moralists are. The trick is to say it enough times, and what was once a taboo to even talk about is becoming normal, acceptable, and even desirable to more and more people.
They now have an annually “Gay Pride Parade” in many US cities with full fledged TV coverage. A “Gay Pride Month” has been established in some school districts to remove bigotry and prejudice. Additionally, colleges and universities have a profound impact on the intellectual development of our young people. It is the time in their lives where new and independent thoughts are introduced, incubate, and develop. However, most of these institution are a bedrock of secular extremism and promote all other values except the divine ones. In these circles, it is politically and socially acceptable to talk about, promote and experiment with all behaviors, homosexuality included, but to discuss and further divine values is considered being close minded and narrow. The argument from some of the elites of these institutions is that we need to adhere to the separation of church and state, which has historical merit. In fact, it is obvious to most observers that what is meant is to take God out of the equation and confine Him to the walls of homes, mosques, churches, and synagogues only. We, the yuths and the parents, all need to be aware of these trends so as to enable us to develop an effective way to deal with these issues and inoculate ourselves against harmful behaviors. This is a summary of our study of the homosexual movement that we undertook to try and understand various movements, religious and those based on other various causes, that have succeeded to transform themselves from being the abhorred or persecuted groups to becoming key players in the American society. Homosexual movement is one of them, the others are the Irish Catholics, the Quakers, etc. The reason for providing the background information here is to first to come to grips with the sophisticated nature of the problem, and know who we and our youths are dealing with. The second is to enable us to formulate an effective response to it.
Discussion here of homosexuality is a reflection of the success of their movement to force us to address this as an issue, even though we would rather not. We do not know how many can claim, with any degree of certainty, the pervasiveness of this behavior amongst our community members. We are for sure affected by the society in which we live, however I think on this score, we as a community, have not yet been too adversely affected. In our studies of the youths of Toronto, which was subsequently published in a book entitled “Muslim Youths at the Crossroads, Advancing into the 21st Century”, we did not see this as a major problem. This does not mean that it has not developed into a problem now, or that we do not need to address this as an issue now. I believe that any discussion needs to take into consideration the following:
We as Muslims need to state unequivocally and unambiguously that homosexuality is a deviant behavior and that there is not even an iota of doubt that Islam condemns the behavior.
The most important thing for us as Muslims is that Islam is not our ethnicity, it is our religion which regulates our lives and from which we derive our values.
Even though our religion allows us latitude, more than most, to ponder and reconsider some issues, homosexuality is clearly and explicitly condemned by the Quran (7:80-83, 11:77-79), the Prophet, and his progeny.
When we have a conflict with the Quran, which is the word of God verbatim, we do not ask where the Quran went wrong but rather why are we, limited beings, in conflict with the wisdom of the absolute, God Almighty.
As Muslims we do not make up our religion, but we receive it and we obey it. Thus stated, we need to clarify, that it does not mean that we hate the homosexual person but rather that we find the behaviorabhorable. We want to help with sensitivity and care whoever has these tendencies, or practices such behavior. We can further point out the following:
God has created everything in pairs each endowed with physical and psychological characteristics to complement and complete one another. The Quran (4:1) indicates that human beings have been created from one living entity (nafs), which represents the origin of both the male and the female. The human species though has included male and female since its existence. The “mating” or “spousing” of male and female sexes is original in human nature and out of this instinctive relationship the human race develops, continues and spreads.
Between the two sexes a gravitating combination of love, tenderness, and care is engendered, so that each finds in the other completeness, tranquility, and support (Quran 30:21). Having children and loving them represents another fulfillment of the human nature (Quran 42:49-50). It is through this spousal complementation and completion, according to the Quran (7:189), that each spouse achieves comfort, and enjoys peace of mind, satisfaction, and fulfillment. These relationships extend beyond the physical sexual contact and to psychological, spiritual relations.
The blessings of this completeness are not ended by their accomplishment, but they continue and develop through bringing forth children, raising them, and providing the whole family with material, emotional, and moral needs.
The pleasures of completion and procreation may well be extended and multiplied, when one is granted grand children, who not only represent genealogical continuation, but are also a dynamic revitalization of the human race.
Such physical-psychological-spiritual development through spousing and mating, followed by procreation, that may continue for more than one generation, ought to lead every sensible human being to be grateful to God for His successive and multiplying favors with his own family throughout his lifetime. Such persons and their happy veritable families would be models for the whole society (Quran 25:72).
One of the criteria or litmus test of a behavior that is beneficial to humanity at large is, “what if the action that you are promoting is exercised by a majority of the people of the world? Will it advance humanity or will it retard it?” In this case human beings will cease to exist.
If there is any truth to the claim that the male homosexual behavior could be genetic, how about the bisexuals and the lesbians. They for sure are making a choice and by our standards a wrong one too.

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Posted: 05 December 2012 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 156 ]
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spreadtruth - 05 December 2012 02:29 AM

Homosexuality and Islam - An Islamic Perspective

I was already aware of the persepectives of many religions; in case it wasn’t implied in my original post, I am an [atheistic] humanist. At the end of your long post, I gather the general opposition based on the inability to reproduce; however, this has already been addressed by stating that not all heterosexual people reproduce and even homosexual people can contribute to society in other ways such as adoption. I am not sure I would say the sole measure of ones contribution to society is the ability to reproduce.

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Posted: 05 December 2012 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 157 ]
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As a Muslim, spreadtruth, you should worry about your own problems. You know, the real problems, like cousin marriage. It’s making you look very unattractive both mentally and physically, and until you stop that nonsense you’ll never have a functioning society. The moment you stop inbreeding you will see that people who aren’t your family are really not all that bad. Who knows, you may even become more acceptant of women and gays.

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Posted: 05 December 2012 07:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 158 ]
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I didn’t bother reading that entire wall of gray text, but what I did read was plain old disgusting bigotry.

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Posted: 05 December 2012 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 159 ]
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spreadtruth - 05 December 2012 02:29 AM

Homosexuality and Islam - An Islamic Perspective:

...One of the criteria or litmus test of a behavior that is beneficial to humanity at large is, “what if the action that you are promoting is exercised by a majority of the people of the world? Will it advance humanity or will it retard it?” In this case human beings will cease to exist…

Your litmus test is not as cut-and-dried as you would have it. There could be positve effects for humanity, if the majority of humans were homosexual.  (I am sure that you could make good arguments as to how humanity would be impoved if the majority of humans were Muslims.  Others could make effective arguments as to how that would be a catastrophe.)  Human beings would not cease to exist.  A couple of billion heterosexuals that would be left would be more than enough to insure the continuance of the human species.  And to the extent that homosexuality does have some genetic determinants, those would be less likely to be passed on if homosexuals were not compelled by societal standards to mate with heterosexuals.

Also, your premise that it is somehow nefarious that homosexuals have been able to organize effectively, in order to promote their lifestyle, is particularly ludicrous coming from a follower of Islam.

Homosexuals are not following a doctrine that their homosexuality should someday come to govern all of humanity.  Muslims are following a doctrine that Islam should someday come to govern all of humanity.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 160 ]
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I think spreadtruth spread his ‘truth’ and ran. I can agree that homosexuality is partially choice. Also, genetic factors can place predispositions upon people in the environment they live in that can influence who they become. But whether an act is natural or not does not justify a bias unless, and only unless, you have a natural predisposition of being religiously oriented. How do you justify your assumed moral supremacy? Even if 99.99999999% of the population agreed with you, your popular opinion doesn’t certify the truth. If that was the case, shouldn’t you adopt Christianity since they are more popular than you are here? As to claiming that there is no biological bases (ethnic connection) to your beliefs, tell us why all statistical evidence doesn’t show that there are an equal amount of every different belief in every country around the world? If you were born in a Christian family in the middle of Louisiana, do you think that you’d still have become Muslim?

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Posted: 10 December 2012 09:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 161 ]
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Homosexuality

This term “homosexuality” describes just one of many actions engaged in by the human species.  In the decades prior to the invention of birth control, sodomy was practiced by many humans who enjoyed sex without the fear of conception.  For many women, this was extremely uncomfortable and unacceptable.  We women tend to be more fastidious even when in bed for some physical fun.  But my point goes beyond the act of sodomy.

There are as many acts of sex as the human mind is capable of imagining.  Let’s leave it at that. Why is this an issue for organized society?  Why is it even a subject for discussion here or any where? 

Humans are born with all kinds of expressions of kindness, friendship and even love.  We are all capable of finding attraction with others; some of the same sex and some with our own brand of humans.  Being aware is the crucial element here.  For example, my teens were spent on the beach of Santa Monica along with a gang of young girls whose families were closely attached by friendships going back several generations.  We found ourselves safely placed on the sand where only members of the Beach Club were allowed.  We had limited access to a couple of glorious life guards who were hired to save our lives if we needed them but access to our young bodies was prohibited.  I can still remember watching those magnificent,  tan, muscular, blond young men running into the water to save someone and we yearned to be in that position.  We did not dare try it.  It was hands off or we would be taken home in disgrace; so our sexuality was defined.

My two daughters were as thrilled to watch the beautiful actors who worked for our local theater and that too was defined.  Not all those actors were straight but it made no difference.  My girls have asked me for years why sexuality is a problem for our local or federal government,.  That is the question that needs discussing.

Are Americans not capable of believing or not believing in anything without the government’s approval?  We chose to be Americans and yet we assume that we must follow the same cultures?  No! 

We constantly return to the world of the Puritans.  We spend countless words, time and money to prove the Puritans were wrong and do not speak for most of us.  We realize that our government is slowly eliminating those Puritan concepts but only after our hard work in proving them wrong.  We still have a lot of work to finish the freedoms earned by all humans who chose to be Americans. 

We battle Evangelicals and Islam and we should simply allow them the same freedoms that we have.  All Americans meaning 100% of people who live here, pay their taxes and vote for or against our legislators. 

This homosexuality does not belong in any level of government; Bush 43 screwed the system when he handed out federal grants to the churches.  He brought the separation of church and state to a close.

We can bring this back once the elections and inauguration ceremonies are over and we can work with our House and Senate to correct the mess Bush made in 2000.  It would be a great action for all Secular Humanists to get involved and do some work here. 

It would be a great subject for an S.H. conference under CFI if they are willing.

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Posted: 10 December 2012 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 162 ]
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Sandy Price - 10 December 2012 09:34 AM

Homosexuality

There are as many acts of sex as the human mind is capable of imagining.  Let’s leave it at that. Why is this an issue for organized society?  Why is it even a subject for discussion here or any where? 

I agree with this in that I do not feel that the sexual acts of people require being announced. It is like someone announcing a fetish preference recognition. These measures may have to be a social phase in order to reduce real prejudices against others though. It is usually credit to the social extremes that cause change for the good for all the variations of that class of social group. Most women aren’t extreme feminists and yet it took many of them to enable all the women of every variety to benefit to some degree. I do find it kind of weird though that a group of people should try to force a particular religion to change or adapt to allow them to marry rather than start their own church. The nature of most of those religions are not democratic. If they believed that their God said do not do X. You can’t say, well this is the modern times and we have a right to re-interpret what he shall mean for today. It’s hypocritical.

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Posted: 10 December 2012 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 163 ]
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As I’ve related quite a while ago, when I was younger I worked with two excellent chemists who were gay.  I couldn’t understand their thinking so I decided to try to see if I could examine their views by blocking my standard approach and see if I could look at males as attractive to me.  I really, really tried, but all that happened was that, for the first time, I realized how homely most males were, and even the body-builder, model type looked dumb.  It became apparent to me that we seem to be programmed from either the womb or extremely early childhood for our sexual preferences.  So, I think it’s really silly for people to attack those who are programmed differently.

Occam

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Posted: 10 December 2012 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 164 ]
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I had a neighbor in Santa Monica who was ny age and attended the Catholic School so we shared no classes.  We did ride our bikes down to the beach and we became close friends.  He began asking me about boys who I was attracted to.  I was not attracted at that time to any boys and I asked him why and learned after many years that he was gay and lived in fear that anyone at his school would find out.  I was an only child without any boys in my family but we began to discuss his problem openly.  I had no interest in experimenting with some of his suggestions and I soon went back to my boarding school.  I never told anyone about him but he was a neat friend.  We shared our summers and he told me he was going to be a Priest.  I thought he would make a great Priest and he would read hjis text books to me and I learned a bit about the Priesthood.  We graduated from school and he went off to some Seminary and we wrote back and forth until he was told to cut our friendship off.  His Aunt came over to see my grandmother and we learned that Michael had killed himself.  I don’t know how.  I felt so helpless.

I know there was nothing I could have said or done to help him and for years I tried to remember what he said and did and there was no clue of his eventual action.  He was a very handsome boy and the girls flocked around him every where we went,  I wanted to take him to a school dance but he said no.  I figured I wasn’t pretty enough for him so I never asked again.  I ended up taking the Police Chief’s son that was arranged by my grandmother.  I liked Jimmy but the choice of dates was never mine. 

Having a son, or evem a close friend, who is gay can be obvious if one cares enough for him.  Several of my girl’s friends were gay boys and many gathered around our home as we had a large front yard for football and a huge pool in the back yard with a single paddle tennis court.
I was home with the kids and I loved having my girl’s friends around.  One could spot the gay boys.  We made no attempt to point this out and there was no need to try.  We all were involved in athletics and I shared my volleyball skills during the summer months and coached our school teams during the school terms.  Parents are encouraged to get involved like this in a private school.  My youngestg girl worked with me in the Shakespeare group where I worked and told me flat out that she preferred the gay men .  She said that they were more direct in their conversations and didn’t use strange words that obviously had dirty meanings.  Yeah, I noticed that too.

I believe that if we could try to make contact with our gay friends and be there when they need a friend, maybe we can help them when they get bullied or teased, we might be able to help them through the rough times.

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Posted: 10 December 2012 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 165 ]
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Occam. - 10 December 2012 01:39 PM

As I’ve related quite a while ago, when I was younger I worked with two excellent chemists who were gay.  I couldn’t understand their thinking so I decided to try to see if I could examine their views by blocking my standard approach and see if I could look at males as attractive to me.  I really, really tried, but all that happened was that, for the first time, I realized how homely most males were, and even the body-builder, model type looked dumb.  It became apparent to me that we seem to be programmed from either the womb or extremely early childhood for our sexual preferences.  So, I think it’s really silly for people to attack those who are programmed differently.

Occam

I’m not sure if you are just stating this in general or you are assuming what I or anybody else recently said was insulting. I don’t think I should have to say this but I have an open attitude toward sex and have sufficient experience that contradicts yours. How does your own personal experience assure that it is impossible for another to grow to like different experiences? I too prefer the beauty of women over men for the most part. I am certain I am in love with the most beautiful girl in the world. But I don’t prefer ALL women. I had a friend who used to joke that in the dark, all holes feel the same when I’d mock him for being too indiscriminate with his choice of women. So one day, I finally retorted, “then what difference is it if you had a good time, turned on the lights and discovered she, was a he?” He never told the joke again. So to me, I think that there are people who you find beautiful, male or female, and saying that you are “heterosexual” or “gay” is black-and-white thinking because it says that you actually mean that you eliminate a whole half of the population of the world. It is bull to say that that is genetic! See the attachment for an example of a guy who’s actually quite pretty.

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