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Why is Time so controversial?
Posted: 12 November 2011 12:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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Chris Crawford - 11 November 2011 10:19 PM

About 35 years ago I realized that the Uncertainty Principle and Second Thermo are two expressions of the same concept.

Can you elaborate a little on that? I do not immediate see the connection. (A not too difficult source will do as well…)

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Posted: 12 November 2011 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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There are several ways to demonstrate the connection, but the easiest is Maxwell’s Demon. He’s a tiny creature or mechanism that sits at a doorway between two chambers. If he sees a fast-moving molecule (high temperature) coming from the left, he opens the door to let it pass into the right chamber. By doing so he increases the temperature of the right chamber, violating 2nd Thermo. Nobody could come up with an argument to discredit Maxwell’s Demon until Leon Brillouin did so in 1951. Brillouin’s paper, however, relied upon QM. Without QM, Maxwell’s Demon works. With QM, he doesn’t. To put it more directly: without QM, 2nd Thermo is invalid. With QM, 2nd Thermo is valid. Thus, the two are logically connected.

There are more detailed arguments but they get rather complicated.

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Posted: 12 November 2011 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Chris Crawford - 12 November 2011 08:49 AM

There are several ways to demonstrate the connection, but the easiest is Maxwell’s Demon. He’s a tiny creature or mechanism that sits at a doorway between two chambers. If he sees a fast-moving molecule (high temperature) coming from the left, he opens the door to let it pass into the right chamber. By doing so he increases the temperature of the right chamber, violating 2nd Thermo. Nobody could come up with an argument to discredit Maxwell’s Demon until Leon Brillouin did so in 1951. Brillouin’s paper, however, relied upon QM. Without QM, Maxwell’s Demon works. With QM, he doesn’t. To put it more directly: without QM, 2nd Thermo is invalid. With QM, 2nd Thermo is valid. Thus, the two are logically connected.

There are more detailed arguments but they get rather complicated.

Seems to me that at a fundamental level all elementals must be logically connected. Does the proof not lie in the evolution of the universe and specifically life on earth? Space, Time, QM, Gravity, Thermodynamics all are interdependently causal to and resulting from their inherent connectedness.
Is that not the reason why we call them universals?

[ Edited: 12 November 2011 06:06 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 12 November 2011 06:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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My quote,

Thus a plane traveling counter to earths’s rotation at 1000 mph would be traveling relatively 1900 miles faster than your stationary twin and arrive at a given rendez vous well ahead of the stationary twin and at a younger age than your twin will be when he arrives later (and older) than you were when you arrived at the rendez vous. In this example it would not be a case of who arrived first, but how old each was when they arrived at the rendez vous.

It just occurred to me that this may be an example of traveling into the future relative to another.  Both left at the same time, traveled at the same rate of speed, but in opposite direction.  In this case the earth’s rotation causes one traveler to arrive back at the starting point earlier in time than the other (the other’s future), while the other arrives at the same point later in time (as I did in my past).

[ Edited: 12 November 2011 06:05 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 12 November 2011 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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Write4U - 12 November 2011 06:02 PM

My quote,

Thus a plane traveling counter to earths’s rotation at 1000 mph would be traveling relatively 1900 miles faster than your stationary twin and arrive at a given rendez vous well ahead of the stationary twin and at a younger age than your twin will be when he arrives later (and older) than you were when you arrived at the rendez vous. In this example it would not be a case of who arrived first, but how old each was when they arrived at the rendez vous.

It just occurred to me that this may be an example of traveling into the future relative to another.  Both left at the same time, traveled at the same rate of speed, but in opposite direction.  In this case the earth’s rotation causes one traveler to arrive back at the starting point earlier in time than the other (the other’s future), while the other arrives at the same point later in time (as I did in my past).

Huh? This is not objective time, but relative Earth time. If I travel from NY to Chicago, my watch goes back an hour. But this doesn’t mean I’m literally traveling an hour into the past. It’s just a silly trick.

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Posted: 13 November 2011 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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Speaking of silly tricks, when I was a kid I imagined a merry-go-round on the North Pole.  Depending on which direction it spun, one could claim to be legally older or younger due to crossing the international date line.

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Posted: 13 November 2011 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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the PC apeman - 13 November 2011 09:10 AM

Speaking of silly tricks, when I was a kid I imagined a merry-go-round on the North Pole.  Depending on which direction it spun, one could claim to be legally older or younger due to crossing the international date line.

Or you could just get a fake ID.  LOL

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Posted: 13 November 2011 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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Suppose there is an important convention on the other side of the planet. My twin and I set off to that convention but I travel against the earth’s rotation and my twin with the earth’s rotation.  If I arrive on time, my twin will be late. If my twin arrives on time I will have arrived early… cheese

[ Edited: 13 November 2011 01:26 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 15 November 2011 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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Chris Crawford - 12 November 2011 08:49 AM

There are several ways to demonstrate the connection, but the easiest is Maxwell’s Demon. He’s a tiny creature or mechanism that sits at a doorway between two chambers. If he sees a fast-moving molecule (high temperature) coming from the left, he opens the door to let it pass into the right chamber. By doing so he increases the temperature of the right chamber, violating 2nd Thermo. Nobody could come up with an argument to discredit Maxwell’s Demon until Leon Brillouin did so in 1951. Brillouin’s paper, however, relied upon QM. Without QM, Maxwell’s Demon works. With QM, he doesn’t. To put it more directly: without QM, 2nd Thermo is invalid. With QM, 2nd Thermo is valid. Thus, the two are logically connected.

I thought the solution to Maxwell’s Demon was that the demon must expend some energy to perform the work he is doing, thus increasing entropy in the overall system.

Suppose there is an important convention on the other side of the planet. My twin and I set off to that convention but I travel against the earth’s rotation and my twin with the earth’s rotation.  If I arrive on time, my twin will be late. If my twin arrives on time I will have arrived early…

I think planes would traverse the Earth at the same speed, regardless of direction.

[ Edited: 15 November 2011 11:23 AM by domokato ]
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Posted: 15 November 2011 02:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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Yes but the earth’s rotation will make the distance shorter for me, thus in effect I am traveling into my twin’s future (relatively). I arrive at the destination younger than he will be when he arrives.
Or does he arrive in my future? i.e. We may be the same age when he arrives, but I have gown older at our destination, until he arrives and we continue our joint (same) age experiences from there? ..... confused

[ Edited: 15 November 2011 02:58 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 15 November 2011 04:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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Write4U - 15 November 2011 02:00 PM

Yes but the earth’s rotation will make the distance shorter for me, thus in effect I am traveling into my twin’s future (relatively). I arrive at the destination younger than he will be when he arrives.
Or does he arrive in my future? i.e. We may be the same age when he arrives, but I have gown older at our destination, until he arrives and we continue our joint (same) age experiences from there? ..... confused

Nuffinks ‘appening writer4U.

One of you travels further, one of you gets there later, that’s it. grin

Stephen

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Posted: 15 November 2011 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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StephenLawrence - 15 November 2011 04:08 PM
Write4U - 15 November 2011 02:00 PM

Yes but the earth’s rotation will make the distance shorter for me, thus in effect I am traveling into my twin’s future (relatively). I arrive at the destination younger than he will be when he arrives.
Or does he arrive in my future? i.e. We may be the same age when he arrives, but I have gown older at our destination, until he arrives and we continue our joint (same) age experiences from there? ..... confused

Nuffinks ‘appening writer4U.

One of you travels further, one of you gets there later, that’s it. grin

Stephen

Yes of course… cheese
However I do find it interesting that we started at the same distance from the destination and we traveled at the same speed. The difference in arrival is a result of our movement relative to the earth’s rotation.

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Posted: 15 November 2011 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Write4U - 15 November 2011 02:00 PM

Yes but the earth’s rotation will make the distance shorter for me,

No it won’t. Assuming the atmosphere rotates with the Earth, the planes should travel the same speed relative to the ground.

If we ignore atmosphere and consider what would happen on the moon (with rockets instead of planes), we see that since the rockets have the same initial velocity (which is equal to the speed of the moon’s surface due to rotation), they will accelerate to the same speed relative to the ground (assuming they undergo the same rate of acceleration for the same amount of time) and reach their destination at the same time.

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Posted: 15 November 2011 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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domokato - 15 November 2011 05:13 PM
Write4U - 15 November 2011 02:00 PM

Yes but the earth’s rotation will make the distance shorter for me,

No it won’t. Assuming the atmosphere rotates with the Earth, the planes should travel the same speed relative to the ground.

That maybe true, but relative to the original spacetime coordinate, one twin will travel farther than the other.
Let me give a very simplistic example.  We have a circular tube which rotates at a certain speed. Inside the tube are two balls connected (latched)with a compressed spring. As we rotate the ring, the air and the balls inside the tube are rotating at the same speed. At a given point we release the latches and as the spring decompresses it forces each ball in opposite directions with the same kinetic force (speed).
After completing the circle the balls meet at the same original point inside the ring, but as the ring itself has rotated relative to the earth one ball will have traveled farther than the other, relative to the earth… cheese

[ Edited: 15 November 2011 07:23 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 15 November 2011 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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Write4U - 15 November 2011 07:09 PM
domokato - 15 November 2011 05:13 PM
Write4U - 15 November 2011 02:00 PM

Yes but the earth’s rotation will make the distance shorter for me,

No it won’t. Assuming the atmosphere rotates with the Earth, the planes should travel the same speed relative to the ground.

That maybe true, but relative to the original spacetime coordinate, one twin will travel farther than the other.

But the concept of an absolute “spacetime coordinate” doesn’t make sense in this context since space is relative. You should only be comparing the accelerations/velocities/positions of the twins relative to each other. Since their accelerations throughout this trip would be nearly the same but opposite (relative to each other), they should age the same amount.

Let me give a very simplistic example.  We have a circular tube which rotates at a certain speed. Inside the tube are two balls connected (latched)with a compressed spring. As we rotate the ring, the air and the balls inside the tube are rotating at the same speed. At a given point we release the latches and as the spring decompresses it forces each ball in opposite directions with the same kinetic force (speed).
After completing the circle the balls meet at the same original point inside the ring, but as the ring itself has rotated relative to the earth one ball will have traveled farther than the other, relative to the earth.

I am very confused about your example.

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