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Why is Time so controversial?
Posted: 15 November 2011 07:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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In truth, so am I….. LOL

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Posted: 16 November 2011 02:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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domokato - 15 November 2011 05:13 PM
Write4U - 15 November 2011 02:00 PM

Yes but the earth’s rotation will make the distance shorter for me,

No it won’t. Assuming the atmosphere rotates with the Earth, the planes should travel the same speed relative to the ground.

I don’t know what Writer4U is saying about time but I know what he’s saying about distance because I’m having the same problem as him.

When I play this in my mind the twin who’s going in the opposite direction of the earth is getting an advantage because his destination is traveling towards him.  He could even just sit still in the air and wait thus saving fuel.  grin

It’s a mind trick.

Stephen

[ Edited: 16 November 2011 02:31 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 16 November 2011 04:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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StephenLawrence - 16 November 2011 02:28 AM
domokato - 15 November 2011 05:13 PM
Write4U - 15 November 2011 02:00 PM

Yes but the earth’s rotation will make the distance shorter for me,

No it won’t. Assuming the atmosphere rotates with the Earth, the planes should travel the same speed relative to the ground.

I don’t know what Writer4U is saying about time but I know what he’s saying about distance because I’m having the same problem as him.

When I play this in my mind the twin who’s going in the opposite direction of the earth is getting an advantage because his destination is traveling towards him.  He could even just sit still in the air and wait thus saving fuel.  grin

It’s a mind trick.

Stephen

Well, I’m not sure that sitting still would work, cause I’d be traveling at the same speed as the earth’s rotation, so I would remain at the start point. But twins traveling in opposite directions at identical speeds must have a relative impact on who arrives back at the start point first. One twin would be traveling with the earth’s rotation plus the speed of his plane. The other would be traveling with the earth’s rotation minus the speed of his plane. Mathematically there has to be a relative difference in distance traveled, which would translate in time traveled.

[ Edited: 16 November 2011 04:16 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 16 November 2011 05:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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Write4U - 16 November 2011 04:10 AM

Well, I’m not sure that sitting still would work, cause I’d be traveling at the same speed as the earth’s rotation, so I would remain at the start point.

Right and that’s the key.

But twins traveling in opposite directions at identical speeds must have a relative impact on who arrives back at the start point first.

No because their speeds are not identical in the relevent sense.

A way to look at it, is this.

Say the earth travels at 10 mph in an anti clockwise direction.

So 0 mph means 10 mph in an anti clockwise direction for both twins.

10 mph for twin A who travels in an anti clockwise direction means 20 mph. 10mph + the speed the earth is traveling

And 10 mph for twin B who travels in a clockwise direction = O mph. 10 mph - the speed the earth is traveling.

So twin A travels 10 miles an hour faster than the earth .

Twin B effectively sits still and waits for the earth to rotates at 10 miles per hour.

So both land at the same time.

Stephen

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Posted: 16 November 2011 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Of course, as long as each travels at the same rate of speed it makes no difference how fast the earth rotates. Relative to the earth, B travels slower but for a shorter distance, A travels faster but for a longer distance.  Also, each travels at the same real rate of speed, thus their clocks run at the same rate.
But to an observer on earth each would travel away at 10mph in opposite direction and reappear at the same time from opposite direction….. cheese

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Posted: 16 November 2011 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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Write4U - 16 November 2011 11:01 AM

Relative to the earth, B travels slower but for a shorter distance, A travels faster but for a longer distance.

Huh? Relative to the Earth, they should both be travelling at the same speed and the same distance.

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“What people do is they confuse cynicism with skepticism. Cynicism is ‘you can’t change anything, everything sucks, there’s no point to anything.’ Skepticism is, ‘well, I’m not so sure.’” -Bill Nye

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Posted: 16 November 2011 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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domokato - 16 November 2011 11:45 AM
Write4U - 16 November 2011 11:01 AM

Relative to the earth, B travels slower but for a shorter distance, A travels faster but for a longer distance.

Huh? Relative to the Earth, they should both be travelling at the same speed and the same distance.

I know what Writer4U is saying.

If the earth is spinning at a certain speed in a certain direction, someone running along in the same direction is spinning faster than the earth.

Someone running at the same speed in the opposite direction is spinning slower than the earth.

Stephen

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Posted: 16 November 2011 12:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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Oh okay. I meant relative to the surface of the Earth, not relative to the inertial frame of reference centered on the Earth.

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Posted: 16 November 2011 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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StephenLawrence - 16 November 2011 12:12 PM

I know what Writer4U is saying.

If the earth is spinning at a certain speed in a certain direction, someone running along in the same direction is spinning faster than the earth.

Someone running at the same speed in the opposite direction is spinning slower than the earth.

Agreed, but again, it’s a really banal point and has nothing whatever to do with Einsteinian relativity.

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Posted: 16 November 2011 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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domokato - 16 November 2011 12:26 PM

Oh okay. I meant relative to the surface of the Earth, not relative to the inertial frame of reference centered on the Earth.

TY Domokato….....“inertial frame of reference” .... is the term I should have used…. smile

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Posted: 21 November 2011 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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dougsmith - 11 November 2011 04:56 AM
StephenLawrence - 11 November 2011 03:29 AM

This misses the point. If I don’t fix my customers bike today, I will suffer the consequences tomorrow. When I say this I’m saying me today will be there. It’s the same me, not a different part of me. There is a difference with merely caring about my future self and being helpful now out of sympathy and believing I, as in I who is making the decision now, will be there.

I’m not sure I get your point. You-today is a different part of you from you-tomorrow. They’re both temporal parts of you. It’s just like you are worried about your finger, a physical (spatial) part of you, which is a different part of you from your toe.

I think this is pretty important, so I’ve come back to it, sorry to press.

I’m sure there are potentially negative consequences of this view of time. Of course that doesn’t make it wrong but it should concern us.

The point is me who is making the decision today does not need to worry much because me who is making the decision today stays right here and now and will not suffer any consequences of a bad decision.

It really is important to believe that me now will travel forward in time to experience the results of the decision me now makes.

Stephen

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Posted: 21 November 2011 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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Right, if you put your finger into a wringer, your toe will pay the price later.  cheese

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Posted: 21 November 2011 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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traveler - 21 November 2011 11:14 AM

Right, if you put your finger into a wringer, your toe will pay the price later.  cheese

Later time slices of you will pay the price. But you who puts it in, no you do get off scott free.

That is the implication of being spread over time, rather than moving through time.

I find it disturbing and I think for good reason.

Stephen

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Posted: 21 November 2011 11:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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StephenLawrence - 21 November 2011 11:48 AM
traveler - 21 November 2011 11:14 AM

Right, if you put your finger into a wringer, your toe will pay the price later.  cheese

Later time slices of you will pay the price. But you who puts it in, no you do get off scott free.

That is the implication of being spread over time, rather than moving through time.

I find it disturbing and I think for good reason.

Stephen

Yes, you get off scott free WRT the toe (but not the finger). “Later you” pays the price for the toe (which was caused by the “earlier you” who was careless with the finger).

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Posted: 21 November 2011 12:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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traveler - 21 November 2011 11:57 AM
StephenLawrence - 21 November 2011 11:48 AM
traveler - 21 November 2011 11:14 AM

Right, if you put your finger into a wringer, your toe will pay the price later.  cheese

Later time slices of you will pay the price. But you who puts it in, no you do get off scott free.

That is the implication of being spread over time, rather than moving through time.

I find it disturbing and I think for good reason.

Stephen

Yes, you get off scott free WRT the toe (but not the finger). “Later you” pays the price for the toe (which was caused by the “earlier you” who was careless with the finger).

Yes, later you pays for what earlier you did. So earlier you don’t care and it’s earlier you that makes the decision!

I’m sure it’s a problem if one really lets go of the illusion of traveling forward in time. (if it is an illusion)

Stephen

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