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Great Resources for Info on Evolution and Darwin (Merged)
Posted: 04 December 2014 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 136 ]
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coral star - 04 December 2014 05:00 AM

...
I am convinced that genes create the evolutionary process, this is supported by the science of genetics and every geneticist will agree with this. When you answer the question as to how, humanity will take DNA to other places, this is the answer that you need, the only difference between that answer, is the ribbon of time, that physics clearly demonstrates is repeating… 

I’m still trying to tighten up your delusion, er…, I mean, clarify your position.  So we humans become the Intelligent Designer of ourselves because we are programmed to, by our DNA.  Then, when the ribbon of time runs down for our current universe, we somehow transmit DNA to the next incarnation of a universe, at some point in it’s history. 

If I had only known that “physics clearly demonstrates” that “the ribbon of time” “is repeating”...

No.  I still think that DNA itself evolved from less complex elements, is a more logical, simpler, and more coherent idea.

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Posted: 04 December 2014 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 137 ]
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coral star - 04 December 2014 05:00 AM

I am convinced that genes create the evolutionary process, this is supported by the science of genetics and every geneticist will agree with this. When you answer the question as to how, humanity will take DNA to other places, this is the answer that you need, the only difference between that answer, is the ribbon of time, that physics clearly demonstrates is repeating.  Thus when we move life from Earth, an intelligent designer, instantly jumps into the mirror, you can deny this forever, but humans will move, even if the move is to a manmade, and perpetual spaceship, that will be so large as to rebuild itself along it’s journey thru the immense cosmos, we will find another place to live, as our solar system, like our sun is finite.

I don’t need any of the answers you provide. I don’t need you telling me what I’m denying. I used to have these kinds of conversations with friends, and they were fun. There’s nothing wrong with this sort of speculation, but I never told someone they HAD to think like I do. I didn’t go around looking for people to engage and tell them my brilliant theory about the universe, I had these conversations with people who wanted to have them, who wanted to think “outside the box” or just wildly speculate about future space adventures. You’ve taken something fun and turned it into an excuse to insult people. You’re that guy at a party that people regret starting a conversation with. The difference is this is a text forum, so you can’t just cut me off while I’m ‘talking’.

Just like Ben Stein, you latch on to something that confirms your bias, like Richard Dawkins saying humans could have been designed by some super race, but you ignore the obvious question, even though Dawkins provided it; who designed that designer? You’ve answered nothing about the origins of life, but you’re still going to tell the story as if you did.

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Posted: 30 November 2015 04:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 138 ]
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awisemanoncesaid - 15 June 2008 11:05 PM

Sometimes beliefs are more important than facts.

Sure you’re going to reply, “How can you not believe Darwinism? The proof is all there!” However, to this I will say, proof is only what you believe.

Maybe its not a religious thing for me so much as it is I’d prefer to not think that we used to be damn apes. Why are there still apes if thats true? Why are there no half ape/human remains? How in the heck did a 6 ton, flesh eating, roaring dinosaur turn into a 8 ounce, singing, happy, vegetarian bird? Or is there all this pent up rage and desire to hunt in the birds I have in the next room?? Why haven’t sharks or alligators evolved? Surely they aren’t at the peak of their performance, I see plenty of room for improvement in their cases. People cry evolution but when you ask them to explain cases like birds and sharks and countless other species they reply, well they don’t need to.  Oh, alright then Mr/Mrs Scientist that explains it perfectly, they were asked but they didn’t feel like it.

The fact that Darwinism is becoming more and more popular is because more and more people it seems are becoming less and less religious. They are looking for answers and find it in theories like this. You cannot honestly say that you are a religious person and still believe in Darwinism. Science and Religions aren’t good bedfellows, you’ve gotta pick which of your core beliefs you really rely on.  Personally I don’t choose to look into Darwinism as the beliefs I have are good enough and strong enough for me. That and the fact that so much time and energy has been spend on deciding if we were once apes or not. Surely all that discussion and debate could be spent better than deciding if Coco at the zoo could be your great great great (x100) aunt.

If you can ask those questions and make those statements you do NOT understand evolution. Go back to a course in basic science.

Nobody BELIEVES in evolution. You either accept the observed and tested evidence or you don’t. Belief is not necessary.

You are not educated in evolution. You barely understand the basics.

[ Edited: 10 December 2015 06:32 AM by LoisL ]
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Posted: 09 December 2015 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 139 ]
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awisemanoncesaid - 15 June 2008 11:05 PM

Sometimes beliefs are more important than facts.

Sure you’re going to reply, “How can you not believe Darwinism? The proof is all there!” However, to this I will say, proof is only what you believe.

Maybe its not a religious thing for me so much as it is I’d prefer to not think that we used to be damn apes. Why are there still apes if thats true? Why are there no half ape/human remains? How in the heck did a 6 ton, flesh eating, roaring dinosaur turn into a 8 ounce, singing, happy, vegetarian bird? Or is there all this pent up rage and desire to hunt in the birds I have in the next room?? Why haven’t sharks or alligators evolved? Surely they aren’t at the peak of their performance, I see plenty of room for improvement in their cases. People cry evolution but when you ask them to explain cases like birds and sharks and countless other species they reply, well they don’t need to.  Oh, alright then Mr/Mrs Scientist that explains it perfectly, they were asked but they didn’t feel like it.

The fact that Darwinism is becoming more and more popular is because more and more people it seems are becoming less and less religious. They are looking for answers and find it in theories like this. You cannot honestly say that you are a religious person and still believe in Darwinism. Science and Religions aren’t good bedfellows, you’ve gotta pick which of your core beliefs you really rely on.  Personally I don’t choose to look into Darwinism as the beliefs I have are good enough and strong enough for me. That and the fact that so much time and energy has been spend on deciding if we were once apes or not. Surely all that discussion and debate could be spent better than deciding if Coco at the zoo could be your great great great (x100) aunt.

Beliefs die out

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Posted: 09 December 2015 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 140 ]
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AMH - 09 December 2015 01:52 PM
awisemanoncesaid - 15 June 2008 11:05 PM

Sometimes beliefs are more important than facts.

  And what purpose would that serve?

Sure you’re going to reply, “How can you not believe Darwinism? The proof is all there!” However, to this I will say, proof is only what you believe.

  The proof of evolution lies in *facts*, such as marker DNA, intermediate species, the progressive refinement of tools, and a host of other factual (demonstrable) similarities and differences.

Maybe its not a religious thing for me so much as it is I’d prefer to not think that we used to be damn apes. Why are there still apes if thats true? Why are there no half ape/human remains? How in the heck did a 6 ton, flesh eating, roaring dinosaur turn into a 8 ounce, singing, happy, vegetarian bird? Or is there all this pent up rage and desire to hunt in the birds I have in the next room?? Why haven’t sharks or alligators evolved? Surely they aren’t at the peak of their performance, I see plenty of room for improvement in their cases. People cry evolution but when you ask them to explain cases like birds and sharks and countless other species they reply, well they don’t need to.  Oh, alright then Mr/Mrs Scientist that explains it perfectly, they were asked but they didn’t feel like it.

Damn Apes?  What have you got against other hominid species, our closest cousins?
First we did not evolve from gorillas, all hominid species came from a common ancestor, branching out into various forms of apes, such as Chimps (Common chimps and Bonobos), Gorillas, Orangutans, and Homo Sapiens.  They are still around because they are perfectly adapted to their environment.

As to size, if you place a gold fish (a carp) in a bowl it remains small, release this fish in open waters and it may grow to be 15 pounds.

The point is that when a species finds a niche which assures its continued survival, natural selection is minimized. Don’t forget that sharks and crocs also have evolved for millions of years internally to maximum performance.  There are big sharks, little sharks, each adapted to its specific environment. There were big dinos and little dinos.

The bigger the organism the more complex it becomes and the more vulnerable it becomes to drastic environmental changes.
Let’s not forget that there are many more small organisms than big ones, because small organisms are less exposed and have an inherent survival advantage, due to their size.

If you look at the *cuttle fish* you will see the incredible power of evolution in what was once a slug.
http://wn.com/kings_of_camouflage_nova

The fact that Darwinism is becoming more and more popular is because more and more people it seems are becoming less and less religious. They are looking for answers and find it in theories like this. You cannot honestly say that you are a religious person and still believe in Darwinism. Science and Religions aren’t good bedfellows, you’ve gotta pick which of your core beliefs you really rely on.  Personally I don’t choose to look into Darwinism as the beliefs I have are good enough and strong enough for me. That and the fact that so much time and energy has been spend on deciding if we were once apes or not. Surely all that discussion and debate could be spent better than deciding if Coco at the zoo could be your great great great (x100) aunt.


And if you have studied Koko, you will find that she behaves in a very humanlike manner and even as she has no vocal chords, she can communicate surprisingly sophisticated ideas.  But let’s go back even further, the Rhesus monkey is even further removed from the Homo branch, but it can count just as well as any human, albeit in a more general sense of *understanding” the concept of *more or less* of a thing, a rudimentary counting ability.

p.s. Belief in Darwinism is not a *result* of atheism. Arheism is a resut of Darwinism which clearly disproves the scriptural creation myth. Don’t blame atheists for the dwindling belief in a creator. Blame science, if you must.

AMH said:
Beliefs die out

Yes and the more we learn about Evolution, the more beliefs will die out. Already we have only “a god of the gaps”

[ Edited: 19 August 2016 01:35 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 10 December 2015 05:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 141 ]
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LoisL - 30 November 2015 04:55 PM
awisemanoncesaid - 15 June 2008 11:05 PM

Sometimes beliefs…

If you can ask those questiins and make those statements you do NOT understand evolution. Go back to a course in basic sciemce.

Nobody BELIEVES in evolution. You either accept the observed and tested evidemce or you don’t. Belief is not necessary.

You are not educated in evolution. You barely understand the basics.

From the holy book of fora:

... and the thread was dead for almost a year. And people yearned for life, and lo…! The LOIS appeared, and did here miracle: she responsed to an 8 years old posting, by a member who posted in 2008 his last post, and the thread was alive again!

But hay, maybe he sees it in his mail box…

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Posted: 10 December 2015 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 142 ]
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Write4U - 09 December 2015 06:07 PM
AMH - 09 December 2015 01:52 PM
awisemanoncesaid - 15 June 2008 11:05 PM

Sometimes beliefs are more important than facts.

  And what purpose would that serve?

Sure you’re going to reply, “How can you not believe Darwinism? The proof is all there!” However, to this I will say, proof is only what you believe.

  The proof of evolution lies in *facts*, such as marker DNA, intermediate species, the progressive refinement of tools, and a host of other factual (demonstrable) similarities and differences.

Maybe its not a religious thing for me so much as it is I’d prefer to not think that we used to be damn apes. Why are there still apes if thats true? Why are there no half ape/human remains? How in the heck did a 6 ton, flesh eating, roaring dinosaur turn into a 8 ounce, singing, happy, vegetarian bird? Or is there all this pent up rage and desire to hunt in the birds I have in the next room?? Why haven’t sharks or alligators evolved? Surely they aren’t at the peak of their performance, I see plenty of room for improvement in their cases. People cry evolution but when you ask them to explain cases like birds and sharks and countless other species they reply, well they don’t need to.  Oh, alright then Mr/Mrs Scientist that explains it perfectly, they were asked but they didn’t feel like it.

Damn Apes?  What have you got against other hominid species, our closest cousins?
First we did not evolve from gorillas, all hominid species came from a common ancestor, branching out into various forms of apes, such as Chimps (Common chimps and Bonobos), Gorillas, Orangutans, and Homo Sapiens.  They are still around because they are perfectly adapted to their environment.

As to size, if you place a gold fish (a carp) in a bowl it remains small, release this fish in open waters and it may grow to be 15 pounds.

The point is that when a species finds a niche which assures its continued survival, natural selection is minimized. Don’t forget that sharks and crocs also have evolved for millions of years internally to maximum performance.  There are big sharks, little sharks, each adapted to its specific environment. There were big dinos and little dinos.

The bigger the organism the more complex it becomes and the more vulnerable it becomes to drastic environmental changes.
Let’s not forget that there are many more small organisms than big ones, because small organisms are less exposed and have an inherent survival advantage, due to their size.

If you look at the *cuttle fish* you will see the incredible power of evolution in what was once a slug.
http://wn.com/kings_of_camouflage_nova

The fact that Darwinism is becoming more and more popular is because more and more people it seems are becoming less and less religious. They are looking for answers and find it in theories like this. You cannot honestly say that you are a religious person and still believe in Darwinism. Science and Religions aren’t good bedfellows, you’ve gotta pick which of your core beliefs you really rely on.  Personally I don’t choose to look into Darwinism as the beliefs I have are good enough and strong enough for me. That and the fact that so much time and energy has been spend on deciding if we were once apes or not. Surely all that discussion and debate could be spent better than deciding if Coco at the zoo could be your great great great (x100) aunt.


And if you have studied Coco, you will find that she behaves in a very humanlike manner and even as she has no vocal chords, she can communicate surprisingly sophisticated ideas.  But let’s go back even further, the Rhesus monkey is even further removed from the Homo branch, but it can count just as well as any human, albeit in a more general sense of *understanding” the concept of *more or less* of a thing, a rudimentary counting ability.

p.s. Belief in Darwinism is not a *result* of atheism. Arheism is a resut of Darwinism which clearly disproves the scriptural creation myth. Don’t blame atheists for the dwindling belief in a creator. Blame science, if you must.

AMH said:
Beliefs die out

Yes and the more we learn about Evolution, the more beliefs will die out. Already we have only “a god of the gaps”

Since the time of the landing of Puritans learning about evolutionary facts has been severely suppressed by common supernatural religions.  That is still true today in the western public school systems and governments at every level.  It is an innate quest of our species to learn our history sans supernatural explanations.

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Posted: 22 January 2016 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 143 ]
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IMO evolution is a fact, as is the Universal Law of Gravitation.  Great and as we applaud Newton for his insight we can applaud Darwin.  But then,  so what.  It seems that many like to gloat on creationists misunderstanding and blindness of the scientific evidence and on the weakness of their beliefs when they are based on a literal interpretation of the scriptures.

As a mirror consideration maybe many have become atheists or agnostics just because of their newly acquired faith in evolution and their faith should certainly be very weak.

As in the thread on god vs. science, evolution in no way is an argument for that case and again we could argue for god and science instead.

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Posted: 22 January 2016 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 144 ]
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SENTIENT - 22 January 2016 02:59 PM

IMO evolution is a fact, as is the Universal Law of Gravitation.  Great and as we applaud Newton for his insight we can applaud Darwin.  But then,  so what.  It seems that many like to gloat on creationists misunderstanding and blindness of the scientific evidence and on the weakness of their beliefs when they are based on a literal interpretation of the scriptures.

As a mirror consideration maybe many have become atheists or agnostics just because of their newly acquired faith in evolution and their faith should certainly be very weak.

As in the thread on god vs. science, evolution in no way is an argument for that case and again we could argue for god and science instead.

Evolution is the creation story.

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Posted: 22 January 2016 06:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 145 ]
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SENTIENT - 22 January 2016 02:59 PM

IMO evolution is a fact, as is the Universal Law of Gravitation.  Great and as we applaud Newton for his insight we can applaud Darwin.  But then,  so what.  It seems that many like to gloat on creationists misunderstanding and blindness of the scientific evidence and on the weakness of their beliefs when they are based on a literal interpretation of the scriptures.

As a mirror consideration maybe many have become atheists or agnostics just because of their newly acquired faith in evolution and their faith should certainly be very weak.

As in the thread on god vs. science, evolution in no way is an argument for that case and again we could argue for god and science instead.

Faith is believing without evidence.  Science requires evidence.  They are two different ways of assessing reality.  It seems clear to me that some persons can hold both, faith beliefs and evidence based beliefs, even when these beliefs conflict, by psychologically compartmentalizing the conflicts.  And some persons can figure out a way to believe in “God” that doesn’t conflict with scientific evidence, by coming up with a version of “God” that does not conflict with science based evidence.  (I guess that the latter is what you are advocating.) But the latter is so far removed from most traditional religious dogmas, that it seems to me to be superfluous, except for folks who insist on there being a “God”.

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As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

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Posted: 22 January 2016 06:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 146 ]
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TimB - 22 January 2016 06:01 PM

Faith is believing without evidence.  Science requires evidence.  They are two different ways of assessing reality.  It seems clear to me that some persons can hold both, faith beliefs and evidence based beliefs, even when these beliefs conflict, by psychologically compartmentalizing the conflicts.  And some persons can figure out a way to believe in “God” that doesn’t conflict with scientific evidence, by coming up with a version of “God” that does not conflict with science based evidence.  (I guess that the latter is what you are advocating.) But the latter is so far removed from most traditional religious dogmas, that it seems to me to be superfluous, except for folks who insist on there being a “God”.

I know a lot of folks who think like that. Some of them have admitted they cannot cope with suffering and death without faith in their god.

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You cannot have a rational discussion with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

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Posted: 22 January 2016 07:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 147 ]
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DarronS - 22 January 2016 06:26 PM
TimB - 22 January 2016 06:01 PM

Faith is believing without evidence.  Science requires evidence.  They are two different ways of assessing reality.  It seems clear to me that some persons can hold both, faith beliefs and evidence based beliefs, even when these beliefs conflict, by psychologically compartmentalizing the conflicts.  And some persons can figure out a way to believe in “God” that doesn’t conflict with scientific evidence, by coming up with a version of “God” that does not conflict with science based evidence.  (I guess that the latter is what you are advocating.) But the latter is so far removed from most traditional religious dogmas, that it seems to me to be superfluous, except for folks who insist on there being a “God”.

I know a lot of folks who think like that. Some of them have admitted they cannot cope with suffering and death without faith in their god.

My problem is that belief in a god or deity does NOT extend my life into the hereafter. That’s just wishful thinking in the *direction of greatest satisfaction*..

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Posted: 22 January 2016 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 148 ]
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Write4U - 22 January 2016 07:52 PM

My problem is that belief in a god or deity does NOT extend my life into the hereafter. That’s just wishful thinking in the *direction of greatest satisfaction*..

I agree, but I know many people who need that belief to cope with pain and grief.

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You cannot have a rational discussion with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

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Posted: 22 January 2016 10:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 149 ]
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DarronS - 22 January 2016 08:50 PM
Write4U - 22 January 2016 07:52 PM

My problem is that belief in a god or deity does NOT extend my life into the hereafter. That’s just wishful thinking in the *direction of greatest satisfaction*..

I agree, but I know many people who need that belief to cope with pain and grief.

Yes, and it also allows you to offer comfort such as “he’s in a better place now”.

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Posted: 24 January 2016 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 150 ]
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TimB - 22 January 2016 06:01 PM
SENTIENT - 22 January 2016 02:59 PM

IMO evolution is a fact, as is the Universal Law of Gravitation.  Great and as we applaud Newton for his insight we can applaud Darwin.  But then,  so what.  It seems that many like to gloat on creationists misunderstanding and blindness of the scientific evidence and on the weakness of their beliefs when they are based on a literal interpretation of the scriptures.

As a mirror consideration maybe many have become atheists or agnostics just because of their newly acquired faith in evolution and their faith should certainly be very weak.

As in the thread on god vs. science, evolution in no way is an argument for that case and again we could argue for god and science instead.

Faith is believing without evidence.  Science requires evidence.  They are two different ways of assessing reality.  It seems clear to me that some persons can hold both, faith beliefs and evidence based beliefs, even when these beliefs conflict, by psychologically compartmentalizing the conflicts.  And some persons can figure out a way to believe in “God” that doesn’t conflict with scientific evidence, by coming up with a version of “God” that does not conflict with science based evidence.  (I guess that the latter is what you are advocating.) But the latter is so far removed from most traditional religious dogmas, that it seems to me to be superfluous, except for folks who insist on there being a “God”.

You are right, science requires evidence.  But how should evolution theory and the related scientific evidence really affect one´s faith, or lack of it.  If you have been interpreting the scriptures literally when confronted with the evidence you should change your set of beliefs.  But if you interpret the scriptures metaphorically, then there is no real conflict between your faith and evolution.  Therefore evolution should not be an issue of faith.

In addition there are things that evolution does not really explain such as the origin of life, the origin of consciousness and in general the nature of man.  IMO evolution is irrelevant to our specie, our survival doesn´t depend any more on natural selection and we may ask now who is the fittest these days? 

In summary evolution, in the same way as Newton´s Law of Universal Gravitation, is ontologically irrelevant and should not be given the importance that it appears to have, for instance in this thread.

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