What is going on in rehab?
Posted: 22 November 2011 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]
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A few years ago, an associate of mine was involved in a drunk driving incident that killed an elderly lady and her 3 grandkids; now in Maryland, if you are drunk driving and you cause an accident, it’s a charge of manslaughter, which carries an automatic 10 yrs.  He should have gotten 40 yrs, but somehow only got 3 years in a drug treatment program run by the dept of corrections; I recently saw him again and he has become an extreme,and almost comically insane bible thumper, but the biggest irony is when I last talked to him he was coming out of a bar!~ hmmm  Another old aquaintence recently kicked a long time drug habit, and he is the same way!  Is there some religious side to drug rehabilitation?  Does anyone have experience with this?

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Posted: 23 November 2011 01:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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mid atlantic - 22 November 2011 08:50 PM

A few years ago, an associate of mine was involved in a drunk driving incident that killed an elderly lady and her 3 grandkids; now in Maryland, if you are drunk driving and you cause an accident, it’s a charge of manslaughter, which carries an automatic 10 yrs.  He should have gotten 40 yrs, but somehow only got 3 years in a drug treatment program run by the dept of corrections; I recently saw him again and he has become an extreme,and almost comically insane bible thumper, but the biggest irony is when I last talked to him he was coming out of a bar!~ hmmm  Another old aquaintence recently kicked a long time drug habit, and he is the same way!  Is there some religious side to drug rehabilitation?  Does anyone have experience with this?

I have a friend who is homeless and he has problems with substance abuse.

When he gets “help” often related to homeless hostels, the people who do this are very often Christians, in a big way, and are evangelistic about it.

On your associates conversion, I think that’s explained by his needing to come to terms with having killed four people, the need to live without being deeply depressed, leaving aside the other option of suicide.

On his “sentence” the important thing is preventing these tragedies for the victims and the drivers.

Not wanting to kill people and wreck many lives is close to enough deterrent for most people. People do it because they think it won’t happen to them, not because they think their sentence will be short. Being the one who does this is, pretty much, punishment enough.

I think one step to deal with this is to make the sentence for drink or drug driving much stronger and to catch a higher percentage of those who do it, so they do expect something to happen to them if they do it. very long sentences for those who actually kill people in these circumstances adds little if anything.

After all, really the difference between your associate and a lot of us (I used to drink drive) is nothing more than luck.

Stephen

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Posted: 23 November 2011 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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StephenLawrence - 23 November 2011 01:36 AM
mid atlantic - 22 November 2011 08:50 PM

A few years ago, an associate of mine was involved in a drunk driving incident that killed an elderly lady and her 3 grandkids; now in Maryland, if you are drunk driving and you cause an accident, it’s a charge of manslaughter, which carries an automatic 10 yrs.  He should have gotten 40 yrs, but somehow only got 3 years in a drug treatment program run by the dept of corrections; I recently saw him again and he has become an extreme,and almost comically insane bible thumper, but the biggest irony is when I last talked to him he was coming out of a bar!~ hmmm  Another old aquaintence recently kicked a long time drug habit, and he is the same way!  Is there some religious side to drug rehabilitation?  Does anyone have experience with this?

I have a friend who is homeless and he has problems with substance abuse.

When he gets “help” often related to homeless hostels, the people who do this are very often Christians, in a big way, and are evangelistic about it.

On your associates conversion, I think that’s explained by his needing to come to terms with having killed four people, the need to live without being deeply depressed, leaving aside the other option of suicide.

On his “sentence” the important thing is preventing these tragedies for the victims and the drivers.

Not wanting to kill people and wreck many lives is close to enough deterrent for most people. People do it because they think it won’t happen to them, not because they think their sentence will be short. Being the one who does this is, pretty much, punishment enough.

I think one step to deal with this is to make the sentence for drink or drug driving much stronger and to catch a higher percentage of those who do it, so they do expect something to happen to them if they do it. very long sentences for those who actually kill people in these circumstances adds little if anything.

After all, really the difference between your associate and a lot of us (I used to drink drive) is nothing more than luck.

Stephen

Yeah, you are probably right.

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Posted: 24 November 2011 10:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Just a thought. Ever see the movie 28 Days with Sandra Bullock?

From what I understand, it’s fairly accurate for a number of different rehab treatments, including, of course, AA and NA.

Browning>>>

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Posted: 28 November 2011 10:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Excellent reply Stephen.  Fortunately I read your response before posting mine. 
The guilt of killing people will cause alot of people to “flip” over to the “god side”.
Long prison sentences are ridiculous!  40 years for someone who was intoxicated and “killed” people in an auto accident is not even close to fair or just!
The person was under the influence of alcohol.  It is a substance that impairs motor skills and spacial perceptions.  This substance, by social design, is purveyed legally in a system whereby alcohol is intermingled with the very vehicular lifestyle we cherish and depend upon.  In otherwords, by and large, alcohol is commonly consumed in a system that requires people to operate motor vehicles to get to and from the place of consumption! Period!
The man had no desire to kill people!  It was an accident.

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Posted: 28 November 2011 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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VYAZMA - 28 November 2011 10:50 AM

Excellent reply Stephen.  Fortunately I read your response before posting mine. 
The guilt of killing people will cause alot of people to “flip” over to the “god side”.
Long prison sentences are ridiculous!  40 years for someone who was intoxicated and “killed” people in an auto accident is not even close to fair or just!
The person was under the influence of alcohol.  It is a substance that impairs motor skills and spacial perceptions.  This substance, by social design, is purveyed legally in a system whereby alcohol is intermingled with the very vehicular lifestyle we cherish and depend upon.  In otherwords, by and large, alcohol is commonly consumed in a system that requires people to operate motor vehicles to get to and from the place of consumption! Period!
The man had no desire to kill people!  It was an accident.

I think each case should be evaluated on its own merits. The man who has gotten into 10 accidents while drunk, should we wait until someone is killed? He obviously needs help, but what if he rejects it, or is unable to stop drinking? Should we just let him go? There have to be consequences for you actions, even if the accident is due to gross carelessness. If a person leaves a loaded umlocked gun in the livingroom, with small children running around, do we wait until one is injured to act? or do we wait until one is killed? In the case of driving your children around with out seat belts or other protection, do we wait for an accident? Is it fair to the victim, whose lives are now ireveribly changed due to another’s gross negligence? It suspect there is a bit of ‘there but the grace of dog’ in your response.

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Posted: 29 November 2011 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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asanta - 28 November 2011 05:19 PM
VYAZMA - 28 November 2011 10:50 AM

Excellent reply Stephen.  Fortunately I read your response before posting mine. 
The guilt of killing people will cause alot of people to “flip” over to the “god side”.
Long prison sentences are ridiculous!  40 years for someone who was intoxicated and “killed” people in an auto accident is not even close to fair or just!
The person was under the influence of alcohol.  It is a substance that impairs motor skills and spacial perceptions.  This substance, by social design, is purveyed legally in a system whereby alcohol is intermingled with the very vehicular lifestyle we cherish and depend upon.  In otherwords, by and large, alcohol is commonly consumed in a system that requires people to operate motor vehicles to get to and from the place of consumption! Period!
The man had no desire to kill people!  It was an accident.

I think each case should be evaluated on its own merits. The man who has gotten into 10 accidents while drunk, should we wait until someone is killed? He obviously needs help, but what if he rejects it, or is unable to stop drinking? Should we just let him go? There have to be consequences for you actions, even if the accident is due to gross carelessness. If a person leaves a loaded umlocked gun in the livingroom, with small children running around, do we wait until one is injured to act? or do we wait until one is killed? In the case of driving your children around with out seat belts or other protection, do we wait for an accident? Is it fair to the victim, whose lives are now ireveribly changed due to another’s gross negligence? It suspect there is a bit of ‘there but the grace of dog’ in your response.

I don’t understand the “grace of dog” quip?(literally…I don’t understand it.)  I only said a long prison sentence was harsh.  Consequences-yes.  Languishing in prison for half ones life-no way! (or their whole life)
The gun is a good analogy Asanta. The correct application of the analogy in regards to my point is that: the guns can not be removed from the living room.  So then what?  Everyday, every night, thousands and thousands of folks are going to drive drunk or buzzed!  They are the guns in the living room.
Unfortunately, now and then this system of alcohol consumption has negative side-effects. 
Booze is massively prolific, cars are massively prolific!  Heck they sell booze at the same place cars get refueled!  There are boozy establishments located on automobile thorougfares! We can’t pass laws that are so archaic as to hold someone accountable for their addictions. Especially when their addiction is sold and served on the very streets, hiways and avenues that they are told not to travel on under the influence of their addiction.
Consequences-yes. Especially for repeat offenders, but long jail time? For what?

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Posted: 29 November 2011 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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VYAZMA - 28 November 2011 10:50 AM

Excellent reply Stephen.  Fortunately I read your response before posting mine. 
The guilt of killing people will cause alot of people to “flip” over to the “god side”.
Long prison sentences are ridiculous!  40 years for someone who was intoxicated and “killed” people in an auto accident is not even close to fair or just!
The person was under the influence of alcohol.  It is a substance that impairs motor skills and spacial perceptions.  This substance, by social design, is purveyed legally in a system whereby alcohol is intermingled with the very vehicular lifestyle we cherish and depend upon.  In otherwords, by and large, alcohol is commonly consumed in a system that requires people to operate motor vehicles to get to and from the place of consumption! Period!
The man had no desire to kill people!  It was an accident.

We still need to prevent the accidents.

What I believe is the penalty for drink driving should be stiffer because really everyone who drink drives is the problem, not the unfortunate percentage who have an accident.

Repeat drink drivers need stiffer sentences again.

Edit: Just to be clearer the thing is I believe there is an irrational imbalance between how we treat drink drivers in general and drink drivers who have killed.

Stephen

[ Edited: 29 November 2011 12:25 PM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 29 November 2011 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Vyazma, that was a play on “there but for the grace of god. go I” a hold over when drunk driving was much more commonplace, and drunks who killed were routinely let off with little consequences. Everyone drives a car, people who drive extremely recklessly and kill are held accountable. I do understand alcoholism is an illness. Someone who cannot control their drinking should make sure they do not drive. There is not nearly enough sociatal pressure placed on people to prevent it. Part of the consequence should be rehab, and we do not do enough rehab either. But at some point, we have to do something for the good of society, and to prevent more victims. Take pedophila, after treatment, it there is recidivism—repeatedly, how many victims should we allow before we lock the person up for the good of society? Should we forgive them, because there are children on every corner? Same with a rapist. You are providing a ‘special pleading’ for alcoholic killers.

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Posted: 30 November 2011 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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asanta - 29 November 2011 05:09 PM

Vyazma, that was a play on “there but for the grace of god. go I” a hold over when drunk driving was much more commonplace, and drunks who killed were routinely let off with little consequences. Everyone drives a car, people who drive extremely recklessly and kill are held accountable. I do understand alcoholism is an illness. Someone who cannot control their drinking should make sure they do not drive. There is not nearly enough sociatal pressure placed on people to prevent it. Part of the consequence should be rehab, and we do not do enough rehab either. But at some point, we have to do something for the good of society, and to prevent more victims. Take pedophila, after treatment, it there is recidivism—repeatedly, how many victims should we allow before we lock the person up for the good of society? Should we forgive them, because there are children on every corner? Same with a rapist. You are providing a ‘special pleading’ for alcoholic killers.

No, I don’t want to “take” pedophilia. The discussion is about drinking while driving, not pedophilia.
You are using sensational nomenclature-falsely, to make your point!  Drunk drivers are not killers!!  They do NOT fit the definition of killers.
Unless you want to consider elderly people no longer fit to drive killers too!  They operate motor vehicles with substandard ability and are involved in accidents which result in deaths…are they killers?
But most importantly in this debate…you are polarizing this argument on mal-adjusted parameters.(see above ‘should we forgive them…”)
I have said right from the get-go there should be consequences.
Your black-and white polarization of this discussion has lessened my ability to make reasoned points in support of fairer application of the law. I’m now being forced to retrace my argument and clarify what my stance has been from the beginning.

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Posted: 30 November 2011 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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What part of driving responsibly do you think is unrealistic? When I go out, I limit my drinking so I am not driving impaired. If I have a designated driver, I make sure it is someone I trust to follow through, otherwise I am the designated driver. It is NOT that difficult. If you have a problem limiting your drinking, take a designated driver, or go out sober, buy your liquor, go home and get plastered. Or, if you go somewhere and get plastered, or over the limit, have someone take you home. It is just that simple to be responsible.

Driving is NOT a right, it is a privilege.

(If you don’t think drunk drivers do much damage, step into your local trauma center, and the cost to the victims can be bankrupting.  One of my aunts was killed by one. He didn’t even get jail time)

[ Edited: 30 November 2011 03:20 PM by asanta ]
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Posted: 30 November 2011 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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I think traffic is a life-a-death issue too.  Alcohol and intoxication is a factor, but I doubt more than being distracted by the radio, or being drowsy.  So I don’t blame the alcohol for the danger.  The danger is there because of the speed of the cars, and the mass of the cars, multiply to a force big enough to destroy or kill.  (m * v^2 = F)  I think that people have well proven that they can’t drive very well, some age groups being worse, but I’d treat everyone equally. 

I’d rather see less freedom about driving, speed is the most important factor and the easiest to change: lower speed limits, more safety measures, more restrictions, tougher testing, more education, stiffer penalties, etc.

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Posted: 30 November 2011 04:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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asanta - 30 November 2011 03:15 PM

(If you don’t think drunk drivers do much damage, step into your local trauma center, and the cost to the victims can be bankrupting.  One of my aunts was killed by one. He didn’t even get jail time)

Everyone agrees this should be prevented. It’s a question of what would work and what would be fair.

Would jail time have made a difference?

Stephen

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Posted: 30 November 2011 10:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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[quote author=“StephenLawrence” date=“1322713512
Everyone agrees this should be prevented. It’s a question of what would work and what would be fair.

Would jail time have made a difference?

Stephen

If he had been randomly firing a gun, he would have been jailed. I do think there should be a penalty, but also rehabilitation and education. I do not advocate for imprisoning someone for the rest of their lives unless it is an intransegeant case. Another example is in the case of Tuberculosis. there have been cases of people with tuberculosis, who have refused treatment, and continued to be contagious with a deadly form of the disease being jailed indefinately. Typhoid Mary was another such historical example.

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Posted: 01 December 2011 12:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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asanta - 30 November 2011 10:23 PM

If he had been randomly firing a gun, he would have been jailed.

Yes.

My point is if we take that approach we need to put all the people randomly firing a gun in jail. i.e all the dangerous drivers, regardless of whether they kill or not.

What we do is inappropriately focus on the acts that unintentionally result in deaths. But all the acts of dangerous driving are the same, it’s just some get lucky and some don’t.

I’m not thinking in terms of rehabilitation b.t.w. Prevention and fairness are my concerns.

Stephen

[ Edited: 01 December 2011 12:50 AM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 01 December 2011 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Everyone is making good points here.  JITP made points relative to my opinion above.  There is a set quotient involved with motorways-these are statistical numbers that generate from our transportation system.  Overcrowding is a major factor, and this goes hand in hand with our complete addiction to cars, and our hobbled dependancy on cars.(In otherwords-most people use cars to interface with all of their needs and wants.)  Given the saturation of alcohol and establishments that serve alcohol vigorously and their inter-relation with cars and roads, I think it is necessary to take this into account when formulating impetus for punishing people!

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