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Why, even among atheists, can we not say Islam is barbaric?
Posted: 12 December 2011 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]
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At what point did it become taboo to criticize Islam? Even within the atheist community, reference to Islam’s barbarisms ignites comments such as “Muslim Bashing,” as if the atheists were superior for defending the followers of Islam. Surprisingly, many who come to Islam’s defense are women.

If pointing out that Islam is inherently barbaric elicits the very same gasp that Republicans would utter if you said that “Socialism might have some redeeming value,” then what seems apparent is that the persons engaged in the discussion (those who are gasping) lack the internal fortitude to venture outside of the rules and acknowledge the elephant. Do they need the approbation of others more than they need intellectual integrity, in order to feel good about themselves? To me, this sounds like yet another religion. Different manifesto, same reaction to non-conformity.

To hammer the point of the secular apologist home, all of the Islamic terrorist acts are defined as “extremist.” At what point do enough Muslims, who are not al-Qaeda, who are not Taliban, kill enough innocent people where the violence is no longer defined as “extreme,” but seen as “moderate,” if not “status quo?” At what point do we agree with Sam Harris and call Islam a “cult of death?” “Islam, more than any other religion human beings have devised, has all the makings of a thoroughgoing cult of death.” - Sam Harris

Has anyone else seen this apologetic behavior among the secular community?

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Posted: 12 December 2011 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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First, welcome BF.

Religion in general gets special consideration by the media that it does not deserve. I haven’t seen Islam being treated any more special than other religions. And from what I’ve seen/heard it’s not the acts that are called extreme, rather the person(s) who commit these crimes are called extremists.
I don’t think you’ll find much of a kid gloves treatment of Islam here.  smile

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Posted: 12 December 2011 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Batarang Force - 12 December 2011 03:59 PM

At what point did it become taboo to criticize Islam?

It becomes a taboo when we realize that the reason why Islam is barbaric, is due to the barbaric nature of the people who practice it.

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Posted: 12 December 2011 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Batarang Force - 12 December 2011 03:59 PM

At what point did it become taboo to criticize Islam?

What evidence would you like to present that it is taboo to criticize Islam?  Like any other theism, Islam is founded on the premise that a god exists, has certain characteristics, and has performed certain acts.  I see no evidence for any of these claims and have concluded that Islam is silly.  There.  I’ve criticized Islam.  I don’t feel I’ve broken any taboos.  Do you disagree?

Even within the atheist community, reference to Islam’s barbarisms ignites comments such as “Muslim Bashing,” as if the atheists were superior for defending the followers of Islam.

Do you have examples of this behavior by atheists?  It’s difficult to respond without examples as there are many ways for writers to overreach.  In general, what I observe for not only Islam but Christianity as well is that condemnation is voiced proportionally to the number and degree of acts found outrageous.  Actually in both cases, condemnation might exceed the proportion of adherents engaging in egregious acts.  It could be argued that other fundamental ideas of these beliefs lead to, if not outrightly encourage, heinous acts.  I have some sympathy for this approach.  However, what seem to be your assumptions about Islam, compared to other theistic systems, are not yet evidenced.  I suspect there may be some form of confirmation bias going on with you.

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Posted: 12 December 2011 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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I’ll say it, I think it is barbaric, but then again, I think Xianity and some forms of Judaism is barbaric too, but again, it is partly the people who practice said religion and partly the text they follow, which are also written by humans.

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Posted: 12 December 2011 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Agree with Mriana. But I think Islam is a little more barbaric than the other two Abrahamic religions.

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Posted: 12 December 2011 08:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Guilty White Liberal syndrome is the reason.  However, I have not seen many freethinkers take the attitude that Islam is beyond criticism; it is mainly the guilty white liberals for whom atheism is just an anti authority label, they are screaming the loudest in this case.

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Posted: 12 December 2011 10:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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As far as I’m concerned, most all religions, notably the ones which actually have godhead(s) are a barbaric form of exploitation and even slavery. I see no reason why Islam should be given a pass anymore then Christianity should, and you won’t find a lot of people here who will.

If you look closely, I think you’ll find that the real issue is why Islam gets bashed, all of which has nothing to do with the creed per se but the bigoted notion that ALL terrorists are Muslim which appears to hold sway with the general public.

The vast majority of Muslims, like most folks anywhere else of all religions/creeds are decent, law abiding hard working people who want nothing more then to make a good living, raise their families in peace and just plain be left alone, or know and understand realistically the extent with which they won’t be left alone, and without having to be troubled by bigots who blame them for the violent acts of an irredeemably evil few.

I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

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Posted: 12 December 2011 11:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Therein lies the issue, because some Xians are terrorists.  Islam doesn’t hold the corner on terrorists, anymore than any other religion does.

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Mriana
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Posted: 13 December 2011 02:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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Perhaps this may shed some light on the situation.

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=90736

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Posted: 13 December 2011 04:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Why, even among atheists, can we not say Islam is barbaric?

`
Because the above statement is a simplistic, broad-brush generalization that does a grievous disservice to a huge number of Muslims who do not participate in, perpetuate or endorse any of the things you might be referring to under that heading of “barbaric”?

that might be why.

`

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Posted: 13 December 2011 05:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Write, your post only strengthens my belief that No religion should ever be above critisicm. Or for that matter, any institution that seeks control over people. I can’t believe that the U.N. would think of sanctioning such a parochial move. Yes there are Islamic people who like most of us want to live out their lives in peace and prosperity and that there are fringe groups who twist the Koran to suit their own sadistic notions, but their religion should NEVER get a pass on critisicm any more than the other Abrahamic religions, or for all religions as far as I’m concerned. Reason should govern our minds, not supernatural wishful thinking. We might all unite under that banner.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 13 December 2011 10:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Axegrrl - 13 December 2011 04:23 AM

Why, even among atheists, can we not say Islam is barbaric?

`
Because the above statement is a simplistic, broad-brush generalization that does a grievous disservice to a huge number of Muslims who do not participate in, perpetuate or endorse any of the things you might be referring to under that heading of “barbaric”?

that might be why.

`

Glad you just made my point Axegrrl! It is not simplistic, nor is it broad-brushed. It is not a generalization since you’re confusing “Muslim” with “Islam.” I am speaking of Islam, it’s writings, what’s in its book and how its misogynistic, barbaric views are adamantly defended by so called enlightened people in the secular community.

You words are akin to, “My best friend is a Muslim! HOW DARE YOU SAY THEY’RE BARBARIC!” I’m glad you made my point. God forbid if we EVER refer to a religion as being barbaric. Go draw a picture of Mohammad and see how loving your Muslim minority is. They are barbaric.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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thevillageathiest - 13 December 2011 05:29 AM

Write, your post only strengthens my belief that No religion should ever be above critisicm. ...but their religion should NEVER get a pass on critisicm any more than the other Abrahamic religions, or for all religions as far as I’m concerned. Reason should govern our minds, not supernatural wishful thinking. We might all unite under that banner.

Cap’t Jack

Unfortunately, Axegrrl just proved my point. The second you come out against Islam and criticize it, you have apologists like her who wants to slap our hands, expecting us all to hug a tree and shame us from criticizing those poor, poor Muslims. When ever someone criticizes Islam, you always have someone singing kumbaya trying to equate nice Muslims with a barbaric theocracy.

Also Cap’t Jack, you said, “Yes there are Islamic people who like most of us want to live out their lives in peace and prosperity and that there are fringe groups who twist the Koran to suit their own sadistic notions.”

Do you think that the Muslims who murder people are really all that fringe? You have the Taliban, you have al-Qaeda… now what about all the other Muslims who killed who were NOT part of al-Qaeda? Do you know who Theo Van Gough is? Do you know why he got murdered and almost decapitated? Do you know how many people got killed due to the Denmark newspaper cartoons of Mohammad? Do you know how many people were murdered at the embassies in the Mid-East during Muslim riots?

How many times do “moderate” Muslims have to kill before it’s finally seen that not just al-Qaeda and the Taliban practice murder for their own religious and political agenda? “Extremism” has a different definition here in the West when compared to that in a Islamic Theocracy.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Quoting Mid Atlantic:

it is mainly the guilty white liberals for whom atheism is just an anti authority label, they are screaming the loudest in this case.

  I find that completely at odds with the facts.  If you check the anti-Islam and anti-Muslim bills introduced in Congress and in state legislators, you’ll find that essentially all of them are proposed by right-wing Republicans, not liberals.  Similarly, if you listen to both Fox News and MSNBC commentators it’s precisely the same.  A number of the people on Fox have excoriated Islam and Muslims as promoting terrorism, have recommended servere limitations on building sites for Mosques, believe it’s justified that they be locked up without trials.  On the other side, I have never heard any of the MSNBC people make any generalized attacks. 

So, Mid Atlantic, get your facts straight rather than just looking for some excuse to attack liberals.

Occam

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Posted: 13 December 2011 11:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Occam. - 13 December 2011 11:30 AM

Quoting Mid Atlantic:

it is mainly the guilty white liberals for whom atheism is just an anti authority label, they are screaming the loudest in this case.

  I find that completely at odds with the facts.  If you check the anti-Islam and anti-Muslim bills introduced in Congress and in state legislators, you’ll find that essentially all of them are proposed by right-wing Republicans, not liberals.  Similarly, if you listen to both Fox News and MSNBC commentators it’s precisely the same.  A number of the people on Fox have excoriated Islam and Muslims as promoting terrorism, have recommended servere limitations on building sites for Mosques, believe it’s justified that they be locked up without trials.  On the other side, I have never heard any of the MSNBC people make any generalized attacks. 

So, Mid Atlantic, get your facts straight rather than just looking for some excuse to attack liberals.

Occam

Occam - I think you missed what Mid Atlantic is saying. It sounds like he’s saying that “guilty liberals” are put the brakes on blaming Islam and calling it what it is. You’re merely reinforcing his point by saying that the conservatives are the ones going up against Islam… unless I completely misunderstood both points.

This is something I left out of my initial question. Being more “Left” of Center, I am finding that my “anti Muslim” perspective is only in line with hard core Right Wing proponents. At the same time, many liberals carry the same opinion of many Christians, which is a bunch of apologetic, head in the sand blatherings. Which is why all of this rhetoric is so confounding. Assuming people in the secular community wish to put a stop to the push towards a theocracy how is it that so many “atheists” draw a line in the sand (such as Axegrrl) and agree to statements such as, “Those were religious extremists!!” yet back off the second you mention that 911 was religiously motivated? To “attack” Islam, in the eyes of these secular apologists, is just insane.

Yet, I agree with Mid Atlantic, myself being a “liberal” that it is this liberal (Christian?) mind set of “love thy neighbor” that allows these evils to perpetuate.

Odd bed fellows.

[ Edited: 13 December 2011 11:45 AM by Batarang Force ]
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