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Why, even among atheists, can we not say Islam is barbaric?
Posted: 13 December 2011 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Glad you just made my point Axegrrl! It is not simplistic, nor is it broad-brushed. It is not a generalization since you’re confusing “Muslim” with “Islam.” I am speaking of Islam, it’s writings, what’s in its book and how its misogynistic, barbaric views are adamantly defended by so called enlightened people in the secular community.

How is she confusing Muslim with Islam when the two go hand in hand? Islam is the religion and a muslim is an individual who follows its tenants. Therefore, anyone who follows Islamic teachings is a believer in the koran. The two are inseparable whether you are a Sunni or Shiiite, same book. And the “elightened people aren’t defending the “bible or the sword”, they’re defending those who don’t practice that belief. She’s talking about nonmilitant muslims who don’t blow up their neighbors because they aren’t believers. Much like our christian, buddhist, hindu, jainist, wiccan, scientologist, and etc. neighbors. Also, all liberal humanists aren’t athiests and are more accepting of another’s religious beliefs.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Good point, B.F.  Quite possibly the fact that many evangelical and other extreme Christians are quite vocal against just about all liberal positions, causes many liberals to generalize.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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thevillageathiest - 13 December 2011 11:40 AM

Glad you just made my point Axegrrl! It is not simplistic, nor is it broad-brushed. It is not a generalization since you’re confusing “Muslim” with “Islam.” I am speaking of Islam, it’s writings, what’s in its book and how its misogynistic, barbaric views are adamantly defended by so called enlightened people in the secular community.

How is she confusing Muslim with Islam when the two go hand in hand? Islam is the religion and a muslim is an individual who follows its tenants. Therefore, anyone who follows Islamic teachings is a believer in the koran. The two are inseparable whether you are a Sunni or Shiiite, same book. And the “elightened people aren’t defending the “bible or the sword”, they’re defending those who don’t practice that belief. She’s talking about nonmilitant muslims who don’t blow up their neighbors because they aren’t believers. Much like our christian, buddhist, hindu, jainist, wiccan, scientologist, and etc. neighbors. Also, all liberal humanists aren’t athiests and are more accepting of another’s religious beliefs.

TheVillageAthiest - I mentioned “Islam.” Axegrrl mentioned “Muslims.” The difference is like pointing out “The Republican agenda,” “The Liberal Agenda,” “Christianity,” “The Green Party.”

I am not pointing at individual acts by individual believers (who are following the guidelines of their book). I am pointing out the system that they are indoctrinated in. What does it mean to be a good Christian, a good Muslim?? Stop for a second, please, before reading and think about it in your own words. ......

.... To be a good Christian or Muslim, one must follow their book. Plain and simple. Look to the religion, you will see a barbaric organization that is a theocracy that upholds barbaric laws.

Inane statements such as, “My friend is a Muslim” or “How can you say that about ALL Muslims? How dare you!!” are missing the point. People like Axegrrl, and you, are missing the point, ignoring the criticism of Islam, and stand up to defend it by using “good” Muslims as an example along with rhetoric that “Not all Muslims act like that!” as an excuse.

And, “nonmilitant Muslims??” Show me a non militant Muslim. How do you know they are? Again, have you researched Theo Van Gough? Have you seen the murdered people who were killed by these, “nonmilitant Muslims?” The people who were murdered were not murdered by al-Qaeda nor the Taliban, they were murdered by “nonmilitant Muslims.” ... unless you propose there is now ANOTHER group of Muslims:
a) Muslim Extremists,
b) Non Militant Muslims
c) Muslim Extremists who look like Non Militant Muslims because they are not part of al-Qaeda or the Taliban yet turn into Muslim Extremists because of their extreme tendencies.

... Non Militant, until they want to be, which is when you offend them. Why? Because it is deeply rooted in their belief.

[ Edited: 13 December 2011 11:55 AM by Batarang Force ]
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Posted: 13 December 2011 12:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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I don’t know if I am understanding you correctly, Batarang Force. Are you saying that all Muslims are violent?

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Posted: 13 December 2011 12:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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George - 13 December 2011 12:11 PM

I don’t know if I am understanding you correctly, Batarang Force. Are you saying that all Muslims are violent?

Nope. In a nut shell, I’m saying one cannot sit back and claim all the violence is done by “extremists.” Many of those Muslims were not out killing people at the embassies that were overrun and during the Denmark incident. They were supposedly “normal people doing their thing.” But, they aren’t like Westerners. Westerners, for the most part, don’t react the way they do. We don’t go chopping off people’s heads or demand public executions over a comic! Even rabid Christians like West Boro don’t!

When someone makes a claim against Islam, calling it barbaric, many secular “free thinkers” get defensive (as I said earlier) and say that “not all Muslims do this.” Of course not, but you can’t tell until you piss them off! How many murders have to occur before we accept the reality that the religion itself PUSHES barbaric violence. Sure, not all Muslims are violent, ... but the non-violent Muslims are the outliers, THEY are the extremists who do not adhere to the barbaric verses in the Quran. They have been “Westernized.”

It is not automatic that “If one is Muslim one is violent.” But, instead of focusing on Muslims, focus on the religion (as I’ve been trying to do this whole time) and judge Islam on its own merits, on its own preachings and not on the merits of those who do not follow its verses.

The last statement is critical and well worth reading twice.

[ Edited: 13 December 2011 12:22 PM by Batarang Force ]
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Posted: 13 December 2011 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Also Cap’t Jack, you said, “Yes there are Islamic people who like most of us want to live out their lives in peace and prosperity and that there are fringe groups who twist the Koran to suit their own sadistic notions.”

Do you think that the Muslims who murder people are really all that fringe? You have the Taliban, you have al-Qaeda… now what about all the other Muslims who killed who were NOT part of al-Qaeda? Do you know who Theo Van Gough is? Do you know why he got murdered and almost decapitated? Do you know how many people got killed due to the Denmark newspaper cartoons of Mohammad? Do you know how many people were murdered at the embassies in the Mid-East during Muslim riots?

How many times do “moderate” Muslims have to kill before it’s finally seen that not just al-Qaeda and the Taliban practice murder for their own religious and political agenda? “Extremism” has a different definition here in the West when compared to that in a Islamic Theocracy.

Yes, Heinous, terrible, thoughtless and inhuman, indeed criminal, and that’s how it should be seen as nothing more than criminal acts perpetrated by sociopathic killers. And NO excuse should be offered to cover these crimes against humanity, but there are 1.8 billion muslims in the world and they aren’t running amok destroying everything in their path. Personally I find ALL religions as anachronistic and unnecessary, but condemning them all as pathological murderers is unrealistic and stereotypical. I do however,  share your aversion to Islam and any other belief that seeks to control by fear. Thankfully we live in an environment that allows freedom of and from religion, even if we have Timothy McVeys, Neo-Nazi thugs, the Klan, and arch conservative evangelicals who preach death to the godless.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Batarang Force,

The Bible is as violent as the Koran. And so is, say, Pinocchio. The fact that the Fox and the Cat hung Pinocchio in the tree tells us that in the times when Collodi wrote Pinocchio it was not unusual for people to hang others. Similarly, it was acceptable at one point to murder your own kids—as we can learn from the OT—or marry young girls just like Mohammed did. My point here is, that we can learn a lot from these examples about the evolution of human behaviour, but I have no idea what it means to “judge Islam on its own merits.” What does it mean?

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Posted: 13 December 2011 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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thevillageathiest - 13 December 2011 12:28 PM

Also Cap’t Jack, you said, “Yes there are Islamic people who like most of us want to live out their lives in peace and prosperity and that there are fringe groups who twist the Koran to suit their own sadistic notions.”

Do you think that the Muslims who murder people are really all that fringe? You have the Taliban, you have al-Qaeda… now what about all the other Muslims who killed who were NOT part of al-Qaeda? Do you know who Theo Van Gough is? Do you know why he got murdered and almost decapitated? Do you know how many people got killed due to the Denmark newspaper cartoons of Mohammad? Do you know how many people were murdered at the embassies in the Mid-East during Muslim riots?

How many times do “moderate” Muslims have to kill before it’s finally seen that not just al-Qaeda and the Taliban practice murder for their own religious and political agenda? “Extremism” has a different definition here in the West when compared to that in a Islamic Theocracy.

Yes, Heinous, terrible, thoughtless and inhuman, indeed criminal, and that’s how it should be seen as nothing more than criminal acts perpetrated by sociopathic killers. And NO excuse should be offered to cover these crimes against humanity, but there are 1.8 billion muslims in the world and they aren’t running amok destroying everything in their path. Personally I find ALL religions as anachronistic and unnecessary, but condemning them all as pathological murderers is unrealistic and stereotypical. I do however,  share your aversion to Islam and any other belief that seeks to control by fear. Thankfully we live in an environment that allows freedom of and from religion, even if we have Timothy McVeys, Neo-Nazi thugs, the Klan, and arch conservative evangelicals who preach death to the godless.

Cap’t Jack

You miss the point and you keep coming back to “All those nice Muslims, how dare you!” responses. What are the two things all those “sociopathic killers” have in common? Could it be… oh.. I don’t know… that:
1) They are Muslim
2) That they committed those sociopathic acts IN THE NAME OF ISLAM?

Could it be? If you read what I said, you will see that I DID NOT CONDEM ALL OF THEM as pathological murderers. If you think I did, then point out the sentence. Please. That’s not my point. Why do you apologists continue to bring it around to individual Muslims? I am referring to the religion. Islam.

But, (this is key here, you might want to read it twice) you tend to think that you can be a patriot of Islam and defend it by holding up the acts, (or non-acts) of Muslims who are not following their own book! Do you see how ridiculous this is?? You refuse to see that if these nice Muslims do the things they’re “supposed to” then.. you’re forced to admit that they’re Assholes. And you just can’t do that.

The “Good Muslim” is doing the things we don’t like; stoning adulterers, chopping off the hands of thieves, blowing up people, killing apostates and infidels and subjugating women, treating them worse than dogs! You look at literal translation of the Quran as if it is the Bible here in the US. You cannot because the “Good Muslims” actually are following it, unlike our extreme Christians who just picket military funerals, which is disgusting, but it’s not chopping off hands.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 12:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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George - 13 December 2011 12:40 PM

Batarang Force,

The Bible is as violent as the Koran. And so is, say, Pinocchio. The fact that the Fox and the Cat hung Pinocchio in the tree tells us that in the times when Collodi wrote Pinocchio it was not unusual for people to hang others. Similarly, it was acceptable at one point to murder your own kids—as we can learn from the OT—or marry young girls just like Mohammed did. My point here is, that we can learn a lot from these examples about the evolution of human behaviour, but I have no idea what it means to “judge Islam on its own merits.” What does it mean?

George… it’s hard to take you serious when you refer to Pinocchio as a premise for whatever conclusion you have.

The difference is that WE (our “Christian nation) do not take the bible as serious as they do. This is self evident. We know that what the bible teaches is wrong, using your OT examples, yet the followers of Islam do not because of the very nature of Islam which kills you if you deviate. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You cannot deny that the religion is barbaric by holding up Pinocchio as an example because WE DON’T KILL APOSTATES! They do. Do you not see this?

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Posted: 13 December 2011 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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t is not automatic that “If one is Muslim one is violent.” But, instead of focusing on Muslims, focus on the religion (as I’ve been trying to do this whole time) and judge Islam on its own merits, on its own preachings and not on the merits of those who do not follow its verses.

Ok, I know about the violence and killings and Van Gogh and the beheadings and the violence done to women and I have a copy of the Koran and have read every sura, and I read every post I reply to, and I don’t appreciate your condescending tone. I’ve already judged islam on its own merit and found it to be as anachronistic as the emperor worship of the Japanese imperial army. You’re railing at those liberals who want detente with Islam but athiests don’t feel that way at all! Personally I judge an individual on their own merit and not by their religion. I have met and engaged in conversation with muslims and I agree that here they are bound by our laws. If that keeps the more extremist of them in line than so be it. I refuse to judge a people by the actions of their peers.

Cap’t Jack

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Posted: 13 December 2011 12:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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You sound very confused, Batarang Force. If the Bible is as violent as the Koran (and it is), and the Christians don’t act as violently as the Muslims, I see no reason why blame one religion more than the other.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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George - 13 December 2011 12:55 PM

You sound very confused, Batarang Force. If the Bible is as violent as the Koran (and it is), and the Christians don’t act as violently as the Muslims, I see no reason why blame one religion more than the other.

I give up George. You win. I think this entire thread is a perfect answer to the question in the topic of this thread. It’s obvious that you guys are here simply to argue for the sake of arguing and have no interest whatsoever to address a legitimate issue or question.

The reason why the Christian Dominionism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism is so rampant is because the non-theist community would rather spend its time masturbating over pseudo-intellectual rhetoric and arguing instead of addressing real issues such as the inherent barbarism in Islam and the threat, not only to women, but freedom in the presence of Sharia law. And no, I am not a republican or a right wing-nut.

This topic wasn’t a discussion on “the bible” because our issues here with bible thumpers are miniscule to those who die at the hands of Islam. The fact that you segue from the focus on Islam to push your own pseudo-intellectual agenda by referring to stanic versus in the bible is disgusting. Who cares what’s in the bible?? When was the last time someone got murdered (here in the U.S.) over what Christians or Catholics preach? Do you not see your circular reasoning George? The fact that we actually have freedom here and are NOT a theocracy means that we can actually choose NOT to follow the bible literally and NOT get murdered over it.

That isn’t the case over there. The belief structure is entirely different to someone who does the most rudimentary of research. “See no reason why blame one religion more than the other?” Probably because that barbaric religion kills you, for real, not just in text, if you become an apostate. Why this isn’t self evident is ridiculous. But, I’ve wasted enough time here for one day. Why don’t you go stand up for the Nazi party, since you are not likely to blame a belief structure much less an institution and only the individuals.

... pathetic.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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Batarang Force - 13 December 2011 01:19 PM

I give up George. You win.

Of course I do.

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Posted: 13 December 2011 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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George - 13 December 2011 12:55 PM

You sound very confused, Batarang Force. If the Bible is as violent as the Koran (and it is), and the Christians don’t act as violently as the Muslims, I see no reason why blame one religion more than the other.


I don’t understand why it’s assumed Christians act less violently than Muslims either?

Stephen

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