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Questions for the believer.
Posted: 23 December 2011 12:09 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Dear Members,
To promote skepticism/critical thinking I wrote some questions for the Christian believer.  Are you able to put the link to these questions at this forum.
Thank you very much,
Piet - Rotterdam - Netherlands.

The original questions
http://www.freethinker.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8382
The translation
http://www.freethinker.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=10033

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Posted: 23 December 2011 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Welcome Piet

I checked the questions and will read the theist responses when I have time.

Most members here are skeptics and many of them are atheists.

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Posted: 23 December 2011 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Write4U - 23 December 2011 03:44 PM

Most members here are skeptics and many of them are atheists.

And at least one nihilist.  wink

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Turn off Fox News - Bad News For America
(Atheists are myth understood)

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Posted: 23 December 2011 04:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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traveler - 23 December 2011 04:51 PM
Write4U - 23 December 2011 03:44 PM

Most members here are skeptics and many of them are atheists.

And at least one nihilist.  wink

Dread the thought…. LOL

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Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
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Posted: 23 December 2011 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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There could be two of us, traveler. I am still waiting for you. You know the way… smirk

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Posted: 23 December 2011 05:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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George - 23 December 2011 05:00 PM

There could be two of us, traveler. I am still waiting for you. You know the way… smirk

I could be one now… I’m just really not sure what defines a nihilist.

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Turn off Fox News - Bad News For America
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Posted: 23 December 2011 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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traveler - 23 December 2011 05:45 PM
George - 23 December 2011 05:00 PM

There could be two of us, traveler. I am still waiting for you. You know the way… smirk

I could be one now… I’m just really not sure what defines a nihilist.

Nothing.  cheese

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Posted: 23 December 2011 11:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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LOL

Occam

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Succinctness, clarity’s core.

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Posted: 24 December 2011 01:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Believer here with a few quick answers

- understanding God would be like a slug understanding you - every concept we have is a human concept - though there are billions of believers not many believe God is human - though many believe he became human - and acts through humans - anyhow, our concepts really only apply to humans - but we like to apply them to other animals and beings - we shouldn’t, but what else are we going to do..?

As far as an after life and being with God - again it would be difficult to explain as a human - we have time and space - created by us to allow our grey matter to function -here’s a quick story to illustrate: “as the farmer held his pig up to the apple tree a passer by stopped and asked -“what are you doing?” the farmer said “I’m feeding my pig” the passer by said “that will take an eternity” the farmer said “what does eternity mean to a pig”

As far as the religious bit about God making man in his own image - I’m kinda worried about that one -I don’t want God to be a pimple faced teenager a thousand years in the future messing with a futuristic computer of sorts capable of constructing the rules of our reality - I would like to think that the soul of man is made in God’s image.

Your questions also mentions things about the evils in the world - ask yourself this - over the last million seconds of your life (about 10 days) how many of those seconds have been horrible, evil or filled with fear? - I don’t know about you but every single second of the last million has been great for me.  There is not that much evil in the world when you consider this - yes there is evil but these are small moments that get dragged out by newspapers trying to make a buck.  For every psychopath there are 10 000 good people - also what is evil to some is not evil to others…as Bono said “vampire or a victim…depends on who’s around”

Some of your other points have to do with God’s apparent human qualities - getting mad, his wrath etc.  I would see this as a means to conveying a message - giving us a story -like the pig to illustrate an idea -

What believers and non-believers can agree on (pretty much) is that we don’t physically go to an after-life.  If this is so then no physical laws or rules we think we know would apply. Most religious figures - or at least Jesus - talk about living a certain way to assist with getting to the after-life.  To me this make sense -  good actions result in good actions being given back - to get to a place of eternal good…you have to do good - your actions become your vessel to get to this place - as no physical vessel could.

One thing that bothers me about the Christain religion is that it often says you only need to believe that Christ is the son of God and then you can get to this place - this troubles me - it’s like the password that will get you into the party
- I would like to believe that if you believe Christ is the son of God then you must act like him - Jew, athiest, or Muslim - turn the other cheek and in you get into the party - whether you are a church goer or porn star

You have many other good questions but it’s 3:30 am on Christmas eve where I am and it’s time for bed - I will try and answer more later

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Posted: 24 December 2011 05:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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sobpatrick - 24 December 2011 01:39 AM

Believer here with a few quick answers

- understanding God would be like a slug understanding you - every concept we have is a human concept - though there are billions of believers not many believe God is human - though many believe he became human - and acts through humans - anyhow, our concepts really only apply to humans - but we like to apply them to other animals and beings - we shouldn’t, but what else are we going to do..?

As far as an after life and being with God - again it would be difficult to explain as a human - we have time and space - created by us to allow our grey matter to function -here’s a quick story to illustrate: “as the farmer held his pig up to the apple tree a passer by stopped and asked -“what are you doing?” the farmer said “I’m feeding my pig” the passer by said “that will take an eternity” the farmer said “what does eternity mean to a pig”

As far as the religious bit about God making man in his own image - I’m kinda worried about that one -I don’t want God to be a pimple faced teenager a thousand years in the future messing with a futuristic computer of sorts capable of constructing the rules of our reality - I would like to think that the soul of man is made in God’s image.

Your questions also mentions things about the evils in the world - ask yourself this - over the last million seconds of your life (about 10 days) how many of those seconds have been horrible, evil or filled with fear? - I don’t know about you but every single second of the last million has been great for me.  There is not that much evil in the world when you consider this - yes there is evil but these are small moments that get dragged out by newspapers trying to make a buck.  For every psychopath there are 10 000 good people - also what is evil to some is not evil to others…as Bono said “vampire or a victim…depends on who’s around”

Some of your other points have to do with God’s apparent human qualities - getting mad, his wrath etc.  I would see this as a means to conveying a message - giving us a story -like the pig to illustrate an idea -

What believers and non-believers can agree on (pretty much) is that we don’t physically go to an after-life.  If this is so then no physical laws or rules we think we know would apply. Most religious figures - or at least Jesus - talk about living a certain way to assist with getting to the after-life.  To me this make sense -  good actions result in good actions being given back - to get to a place of eternal good…you have to do good - your actions become your vessel to get to this place - as no physical vessel could.

One thing that bothers me about the Christain religion is that it often says you only need to believe that Christ is the son of God and then you can get to this place - this troubles me - it’s like the password that will get you into the party
- I would like to believe that if you believe Christ is the son of God then you must act like him - Jew, athiest, or Muslim - turn the other cheek and in you get into the party - whether you are a church goer or porn star
You have many other good questions but it’s 3:30 am on Christmas eve where I am and it’s time for bed - I will try and answer more later

To be frank, all of your answers can easily be demolished.  1)God is a human concept because the brain is a mess, and randomly creates imaginary worlds that we can then add to when it suits us emotionally; there is absolutley no objective evidence what so ever that we were created by a supernatural being.  2)Afterlife concepts are the same as believing in God.  The thing that humans call our “soul”  can be explained in materialistic terms, no matter what the soul may be thought as - emotions, conciousness,sensations all are physical. Time and space exists, even if we don’t. 3) God didn’t make man in his image , man made God in his image. 4)No there is not all that much evil in the world, good and bad stuff happens randomly because the universe is utterley indifferent to how we feel. 5) God is not giving a message to anything ,because God doesn’t exist.  6) Nothing physical lives on because there is nothing to keep living on.  Your actions are not magical. 7) All religions have rules particular to them that can seem unfair, that is because they are human creations.

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Posted: 24 December 2011 05:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Thanks for the warm welcome!! I follow this topic.  My English must improve before I start a discussion.  Sobpatrick I’ll think that some of the skeptic members will give you feedback.  Otherwise one of the last questions is my reply of your writing.  Question 41.  Last series.  But I am looking forward to read the rest of your study.  Good holidays everybody.  By the way if someone could get the point using google translate (last part).  And present me a well looking sentence you make my day.  My translation headache vanish after reading this.

Grtz,

Piet from Rotterdam - Netherlands.  And also site-admin freethinker.nl.

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Posted: 24 December 2011 12:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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sobpatrick
Believer here with a few quick answers

- understanding God would be like a slug understanding you

That is such a duplicitous statement and filled with hubris. Yes, man is a slug, except for the few who “know” and “understand” god, how he created the universe and why. They were able to write an entire book about him, filled with details of purpose ant intent. They are the “super slugs” who will show the mere slugs how to be good slugs.
Darwin, Einstein, Newton, Freud, Huxley, Paine (to name a few) were just educated slugs, but never quite made it to super slug, they just figured out how it all works, not why.

- every concept we have is a human concept

That is a true statement. And that is why man has created god in his image. But in our humility we concede that we are made in his image, slugs.

- though there are billions of believers not many believe God is human

But yet he has human qualities, love, anger, vengefulness, the things that make us human.

- though many believe he became human - and acts through humans

Super slugs

- anyhow, our concepts really only apply to humans

Just like a slug’s concepts only apply to slugs.

- but we like to apply them to other animals and beings

How misguided, the universe only applies to humans. Animals were just a by product, created for us humans (slugs) to dominate.

- we shouldn’t, but what else are we going to do..?

How about acting like humans, not slugs? If you don’t know, say so honestly. It’ll just make you agnostic, not such a bad deal.
Actually, you would gain the respect of many educated slugs.

[ Edited: 24 December 2011 12:45 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 28 December 2011 06:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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George - 23 December 2011 06:05 PM
traveler - 23 December 2011 05:45 PM
George - 23 December 2011 05:00 PM

There could be two of us, traveler. I am still waiting for you. You know the way… smirk

I could be one now… I’m just really not sure what defines a nihilist.

Nothing.  cheese

Just had to log in to say that this almost made me spit out my drink here at work. lol

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Don’t get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

- Bruce Lee -

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Posted: 28 December 2011 07:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Piet,

I believe if you use Bing translator you may get good results.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/?ref=TThis&from=nl-NL&to=en-US

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Posted: 29 December 2011 02:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Write4U - 28 December 2011 07:10 PM

Piet,

I believe if you use Bing translator you may get good results.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/?ref=TThis&from=nl-NL&to=en-US

Good suggestion.  But at the moment I put them “outside” .  Two people were kind enough to offer me help.  You can show the result.  1 to 6 and the other works in the last part. 
Translation is heavy stuff.

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Posted: 02 January 2012 07:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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I used only Bing for question 21.  What is your meaning about this translation. 

21. My soulmate has on his site a wonderful piece of prose. It is about the Israeli psychologist George Tamarin. He did from 1966 to 1973 an investigation into the effect of “non-critical Bible education on the forms of prejudices”. The investigation stretched from about 1066 Israeli children from 8 to 14 years. The children was the story of the fall of Jericho and the killing of everything that lived there read (Joshua 6). Then the children were asked “do you think that Joshua and the Israelites acted correctly or not?” The answers are divided as follows: completely right 66%, 26%, neither wholly correct, completely incorrect neither wholly incorrect 8%. If reasons for approval were called God’s promise to donate the land, God’s command to do this, the danger of mixing with bad other cultures and religions. Of the 8% children that there were reasons given demurred oa as: “Joshua was stupid to also to eradicate the animals, he had better they themselves can use”, “The city and all the goods did not have to be destroyed.”
There was no difference in rates between girls and boys.

If control group got 168 children read the same story with ’ General Lin ’ instead of Joshua as a hero and ’ The Chinese Kingdom of 3000 years ago ’ instead of the people Israel as protagonists. General Lin got only 7% approval, 18% partial approval, and an overwhelming percentage of 75% judged the matter completely.

Clearly not here speaks out that education Imaging stains? And that human morality is very old with Bible texts. Is this double morality desirable?

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