3 of 9
3
nursing a baby
Posted: 30 December 2011 07:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15370
Joined  2006-02-14

*Yawn*. This is just the fallacious argument from ignorance/God of the gaps all over again. When will people learn that a fallacy is a fallacy?

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 December 2011 07:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29

Agreed with Doug. It’s a waste of anybody’s time to try to explain evolution to upwardlook1 if he is not capable (or willing) of logical thinking.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 December 2011 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4301
Joined  2010-08-15
upwardlook1 - 29 December 2011 09:56 PM

Some have suggested that I should go to youtube and wiki for scientific info. I go to those sources when I want to study history and philosophy, or if I want to be entertained. I’m surprised you go to those places for science. I mean really- what’s up with you guys?!

Why think of me as a cre? It’s just that some of us freethinkers do not accept evolution as the answer to every question.

I’d like to thank all of you for your input. This has been great. Thanks for your time.

Those sources were suggested because they are easy introductory lessons upon which you can build… sort of an evolutionary process in itself.

But you were also given serious explanations {in fact, reading through the posts this thread turned out to be more interesting than I thought it would be} all of which you’ve ignored and instead of focused on your given intent (according to your opening post.), you seem to be in a huff and implying you’re going to take your marbles and play somewhere else.  It’s a shame.

But, guess I should read on and see how this thread continues to progress. . . . . . .

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 December 2011 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4301
Joined  2010-08-15

Just in case Uwl peeks in again, i’m curious how he would defend the assumptions made in his opening thread:

upwardlook1 - 28 December 2011 09:21 PM

I wonder if an evolutionist has a believable way of explaining how even those 6 things became operational all at the exact same time. I know you believe that it “all” happened over a long period of time by chance and natural selection.

The fact that these 6 are present at the exact same time BY chance is near 0.

AND the fact that the supposed processes are “at work” in two separate bodies (mother and baby) the chance is further reduced and thus, NO chance.
I’m waiting for an explanation.

Who say’s “six things became operational all at the exact same time”?
Do you not believe that evolution “happened over a long period of time”
“Chance” is such a sloppy word… but what about “natural selection” does that process make sense to you, or are your questions based on “natural selection” being a myth or false or something?

“The fact that these 6 are present at the exact same time BY chance is near 0.”

What’s that mean?  I use many tools in my trade, but that doesn’t mean they were all developed, or collected at the same time.

“the supposed processes are “at work” in two separate bodies (mother and baby)” Does not make much sense to me either.  I understand all actions happen to individuals and not to “species” still seems to me the baby and the mother are the same creature and that the processes that formed them are at work over eons of time and countless generations, so that your phrasing seems inadequate.

 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 December 2011 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
upwardlook1 - 30 December 2011 12:03 AM

W4U,

“Asanta wrote, ‘You DO realize that ALL mammals nurse their young, don’t you?’ What about the duckbill platypus? It is an exception to the idea that all mammals nurse their young.”
W4U,you missed my point about Db P. Asanta had said that ALL mammals nurse their young. I pointed out that the mammal known as platypus is an exception to that statement.
Of course I know the platypus is classified as a mammal! I was awake when that animal was mentioned in bio class.

Even high school students are not allowed to use wiki as a source when writing a paper for English class.

By your def I am certainly a freethinker because I am a skeptical thinker when it comes to macroevolution! (Be sure to look up *macroevolution* in wiki.)

‘What’s up with you “Upwardlook1”?’  My upward look, of course!

I repeat…ALL MAMMALS NURSE THEIR YOUNG. Platypuses STILL nurse their young, they DO make milk for their young, with milk producing glands, they just get the milk to them in a different way. You did NOT pay close enough attention.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 December 2011 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2191
Joined  2007-04-26

The OP’s argument is as doug said “the god of the gaps” mixed with a healthy helping of “lack of imagination”. The fossil record is as one would suspect incomplete. The odds of any one individual becoming fossilized when they die is extremely low. The odds that a human being would then happen upon that fossil and recognize it as one are also very remote. Even very large organisms like T-Rex exist in only a few specimens despite the fact that many millions of them ( and perhaps billions) were born and died during their reign. For someone to use the lack of transitional species for every evolutionary milestone shows a complete ignorance of the process of fossilization. In fact the very existence of any transitional species is a stroke of extreme luck and at the same time amazing evidence for evolution.

The OP’s argument is just one of many presented by creationists.  All of them show a complete lack of imagination no doubt motivated by a desire not to see what they dont want to see ie. that evolution is a fact. The eye is another structure often sited by creationists. After all you need all the parts for it to function properly and a defect in any one of them can result in markedly impaired vision. Nature doesn’t work like that though. It not that difficult to imagine that an area on the skin might have become sensitive to light. Such a mutation could be beneficial in that it might help an organism find food..ie more light means more photosynthetic organisms like plants or plankton. A lense is nothing more than specialized skin cells. A simple lens could form very easily if a curved layer of skin formed over the photosensitive area. This crude lens would not allow images to be formed on the crude sensory organ but it would allow for better directional ability and greater sensitivity. Its then a simple matter of improvements over eons to get the eye we have today.

Sometimes the transition may not be as easy to imagine but lack of imagination is proof of nothing and certainly not proof of a god for which there is no proof at all.

 Signature 

For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious,.... and just plain wrong

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 December 2011 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6055
Joined  2009-02-26

macgyver

Even very large organisms like T-Rex exist in only a few specimens

Yes Paleontology started with “There were giants in the earth in those days” ?  The time frame was a little off, but thats a minor detail….. cheese

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 December 2011 09:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  17
Joined  2011-12-28

Consider the following-
When the male sperm is delivered into the virgina through the penis it is in a hostile, acidic environment. Don’t worry because back in the testis the seminal vesicles put an acid neutralizer in the semen. Another thing about the hostile environment of the female system is the mucus plug in the opening to the uterus. Not a prob- in the semen is prostaglandin & it causes the mucus to become less of a barrier. The uterus is a hostile place because the female immune system is there to protect the female from the foreign matter. Fortunately the sperm is protected by an immune system suppressant. But a suppressed immune system is not good for the female. No need to worry-seminalplasmin in the semen can kill microbes and protect the female. Also the uterus has cilia and their rhythmic movement is meant to flush foreign stuff out of the uterus. Watch out sperm you are going to get brushed out!  Don’t worry, be happy! There is yet another substance in the semen that causes the uterus to reverse action and the sperm goes actually deeper into the uterus.
On top of all this, freshly- deposited sperm must undergo several changes before it can fertilize an egg. One of these is the removal of a protective coating from the sperm. This allows the erosive enzyme of the sperm to break down a protective coat around the egg. Thus a sperm makes its way inside the egg and fertilization happens! WOW!!

Most of you believe that all the above (which is condensed) was produced AND made functional by chance. This freethinker is not able to attribute that much power to chance. And in addition to the fertilization process there are countless numbers of other complicated parts and chemicals that must be present and functioning (example, the production/ reception of milk) for life to be present on this planet. Forgive me, but I don’t accept the idea that it all happened by chance.

Happy new year to all.

 Signature 

What I’m asking for is the freedom to follow
the evidence wherever it leads. ~ Richard Sternberg

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 December 2011 11:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2681
Joined  2011-04-24
upwardlook1 - 30 December 2011 09:35 PM

Consider the following-
When the male sperm is delivered into the virgina through the penis it is in a hostile, acidic environment. Don’t worry because back in the testis the seminal vesicles put an acid neutralizer in the semen. Another thing about the hostile environment of the female system is the mucus plug in the opening to the uterus. Not a prob- in the semen is prostaglandin & it causes the mucus to become less of a barrier. The uterus is a hostile place because the female immune system is there to protect the female from the foreign matter. Fortunately the sperm is protected by an immune system suppressant. But a suppressed immune system is not good for the female. No need to worry-seminalplasmin in the semen can kill microbes and protect the female. Also the uterus has cilia and their rhythmic movement is meant to flush foreign stuff out of the uterus. Watch out sperm you are going to get brushed out!  Don’t worry, be happy! There is yet another substance in the semen that causes the uterus to reverse action and the sperm goes actually deeper into the uterus.
On top of all this, freshly- deposited sperm must undergo several changes before it can fertilize an egg. One of these is the removal of a protective coating from the sperm. This allows the erosive enzyme of the sperm to break down a protective coat around the egg. Thus a sperm makes its way inside the egg and fertilization happens! WOW!!

Most of you believe that all the above (which is condensed) was produced AND made functional by chance. This freethinker is not able to attribute that much power to chance. And in addition to the fertilization process there are countless numbers of other complicated parts and chemicals that must be present and functioning (example, the production/ reception of milk) for life to be present on this planet. Forgive me, but I don’t accept the idea that it all happened by chance.

Happy new year to all.

What do you think happend?

 Signature 

Raise your glass if you’re wrong…. in all the right ways.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 December 2011 12:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7684
Joined  2008-04-11
upwardlook1 - 30 December 2011 09:35 PM

Consider the following-
When the male sperm is delivered into the virgina through the penis it is in a hostile, acidic environment. Don’t worry because back in the testis the seminal vesicles put an acid neutralizer in the semen. Another thing about the hostile environment of the female system is the mucus plug in the opening to the uterus. Not a prob- in the semen is prostaglandin & it causes the mucus to become less of a barrier. The uterus is a hostile place because the female immune system is there to protect the female from the foreign matter. Fortunately the sperm is protected by an immune system suppressant. But a suppressed immune system is not good for the female. No need to worry-seminalplasmin in the semen can kill microbes and protect the female. Also the uterus has cilia and their rhythmic movement is meant to flush foreign stuff out of the uterus. Watch out sperm you are going to get brushed out!  Don’t worry, be happy! There is yet another substance in the semen that causes the uterus to reverse action and the sperm goes actually deeper into the uterus.
On top of all this, freshly- deposited sperm must undergo several changes before it can fertilize an egg. One of these is the removal of a protective coating from the sperm. This allows the erosive enzyme of the sperm to break down a protective coat around the egg. Thus a sperm makes its way inside the egg and fertilization happens! WOW!!

Most of you believe that all the above (which is condensed) was produced AND made functional by chance. This freethinker is not able to attribute that much power to chance. And in addition to the fertilization process there are countless numbers of other complicated parts and chemicals that must be present and functioning (example, the production/ reception of milk) for life to be present on this planet. Forgive me, but I don’t accept the idea that it all happened by chance.

Happy new year to all.

1) Your spelling is atrocious, there is plenty of sperm in Virginia, but I think you meant vagina. 2) I don’t think you actually know what you are talking about…just parroting what you got from another site. 3) why did you quit with the ‘nursing’ subject? 4) Your conjectures are nothing more than argument(s) from ignorance, if you really cared, you would pick up one of the many books suggested and READ.

 Signature 

Church; where sheep congregate to worship a zombie on a stick that turns into a cracker on Sundays…

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 December 2011 01:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6055
Joined  2009-02-26

How about 7 million years of selecting the right traits for survival in hominids alone. I wonder how the body acquired symbiotic organisms. They are not human at all. Will natural wonders ever cease?

There are more number of bacteria to be found on and in the human body than human cells!
Helpful bacteria
•Certain types of bacteria live in the intestines of human beings. They help in digestion and in destroying the harmful organisms. Intestinal bacteria also produce some vitamins required by the human body.
•Certain bacteria help break down lactose in the digestive tract.
•It is observed that infants who were administered the bacteria Lactobacillus reuteri or Bifidobacterium had fewer and shorter episodes of diarrhea.
•Fermented milk containing the live bacteria Lactobacillus casei helps in eradicating harmful bacteria Helicobacter pylori in children.
•Saccharomyces boulardii is found to reduce the risk of antibiotic-associated diarrhea in children.
•Some bacteria present on the skin protect us from the spread of certain fungus.
•It was found that DNA damage was significantly reduced by all six strains of lactic acid producing helpful bacteria tested with the exception of Streptococcus thermophilus.
•There are many types of bacteria that live inside the mouth, nose, throat, and intestines of humans and animals. These bacteria get a place to live and feed while keeping other harmful microbes from taking up residence.
•Certain stomach bacteria may work harmoniously with our immune system. There are billions of stomach bacteria, which are friendly or beneficial bacteria.
•There are some friendly bacteria such as intestinal flora or micro-flora which are good for human health. These healthy stomach bacteria are helpful to release many useful vitamins such as vitamin B and vitamin K, etc. The most important task that stomach bacteria do is to maintain normal pH level or acid level of human stomach.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/beneficial-bacteria-to-humans.html

And from Wiki,

Research suggests that the relationship between gut flora and humans is not merely commensal (a non-harmful coexistence), but rather a symbiotic relationship.[3] Though people can survive without gut flora,[4] the microorganisms perform a host of useful functions, such as fermenting unused energy substrates, training the immune system, preventing growth of harmful, pathogenic bacteria,[2] regulating the development of the gut, producing vitamins for the host (such as biotin and vitamin K), and producing hormones to direct the host to store fats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora

[ Edited: 31 December 2011 01:26 AM by Write4U ]
 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 December 2011 01:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6055
Joined  2009-02-26

upwardlook1
This freethinker is not able to attribute that much power to chance.

A true freethinker is “able” to change his/her mind in the face of overwhelming evidence. You still seem bound to preconceived (theistic) ideas, in spite of overwhelming science.

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 December 2011 06:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9301
Joined  2006-08-29

Why did God create the vagina acidy? So that He can later add a neutralizer to the semen?

You need to understand that “chance” is only one of the many ingredients in evolution. But you obviously don’t want to understand that. Maybe you can’t.

[ Edited: 31 December 2011 08:11 AM by George ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 December 2011 07:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2191
Joined  2007-04-26
upwardlook1 - 30 December 2011 09:35 PM

Consider the following-
When the male sperm is delivered into the virgina through the penis it is in a hostile, acidic environment. ...but I don’t accept the idea that it all happened by chance.

You don’t need to accept anything. you need only use reason and logic. You could start by actually reading the responses to your OP rather than ignoring them and repeating the same old tired arguments that are just dressed up in new clothes.

You continue to look at the final refined product and wonder how “all the parts” got there at the same time. We have tried to explain to you that this is not how things evolve. The very term “evolve” means that it changed from a previous form. The systems and structures that you see in living organisms today did not suddenly appear in that form. Some of the individual parts most likely had other uses when they first appeared and were useful in isolation or in some other combination with preexisting elements. Over time these combinations have rearranged themselves and new components evolved that improved things and helped the organism survive and reproduce.

I gave you the example of the eye above. For every system that exists there was some similar evolutionary process that resulted in its current form. All you need is the imagination to see how it could have happened.

Use modern technology as an example. If someone were to look modern technology they would say much the same thing you are saying about modern organisms. How could the internet develop without devices to use it and how could those devices develop without an internet to connect them and why would computer processors be created without a screen to view output on and what good is a screen if its not a touch screen capable of providing input. Because we all know how the internet and computers developed we would consider these to be pretty silly questions. Computers obviously had a different purpose in the beginning. They weren’t used to access the internet. they were used to do complex calculations for researchers and even when they made it into the home they were used largely as word processors and gaming devices. The internet did not come about as a means to connect consumers for shopping, gaming, and tweeting. It was a primitive system used to help researchers in a few institutions collaborate and it was done over phone lines which weren’t designed to transmit data at all. The first input devices were keyboards which were adapted from keyboards used on typewriters for the simple task of typing letters rather then entering data into a computer.

All of these parts had other uses before they came together to give us the internet we have today. They didnt all spring up denovo in their current form to become the internet. once the internet became available to the public it evolved and did so rapidly as each component mutated and improved. Our antique dial up phone line became a high speed cable or DSL connection. Then our wired desktop device became a wifi connected laptop.. then a handheld smartphone which then became 3G and then 4G. Keypads became touchscreens and so on and so on.

Evolution takes place through the same process. The only thing that stops you from seeing it is your lack of imagination

Life has evolved over billions of years and things that seem unlikely in our short life spans become very likely when looked at over such long expanses of time especially when you consider the billions or trillions of organisms alive at any moment in time.

 Signature 

For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious,.... and just plain wrong

Profile
 
 
Posted: 31 December 2011 08:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4301
Joined  2010-08-15

Upwardlook1 reading the description in your last post #38

I was thinking, yup it’s a beautiful thing isn’t it.

I believe perhaps you’re a bit too hooked on the notion of “chance” and I believe few scientists would subscribe the process to “chance” as you seem to understand it.

Macgyver in the previous post did a wonderful job of describing how this “chance” plays out in a real world high speed evolutionary process all of have been able to witness - I wonder whether you found anything of interest in there?

Regarding Write4U’s post at #41.  I’ll go him one step further… check it out

Your Body Is a Planet
90% of the cells within us are not ours but microbes’.
by Josie Glausiusz
From the June 2007 issue

We may not realize it, but each one of us is a walking ecosystem. {...}
Most of the time we share our bodies harmoniously with the 90 trillion or so microbes. {...}
Living with microbes demands a biological balancing act. {...}

like I said: it’s beautiful thing… and best of all > no Lord is required to accomplish the fantastical feats that have occurred on this very special planet over the past few billions years.

Happy Hew Year

[edited to fix dastardly typos]

[ Edited: 31 December 2011 08:51 AM by citizenschallenge.pm ]
 Signature 

How many times do lies need to be exposed
before we have permission to trash them?

Profile
 
 
   
3 of 9
3