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Transgender boys in girl scouts.
Posted: 14 January 2012 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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They’re the T in LGBT hence the acronym. I remember the fuss made by the Boy Scouts when the first homosexual child wanted to join and was refused because the Scouts embraced Christian values and homosexuality was considered an “abomination” to god. The ACLU was called in and a fight ensued. Several organizations today don’t consider it an issue but the bullying in school systems still remains to a degree depending on the area but violence against LGBT has dropped considerably. None of these lifestyles is a matter of choice or as they say, “sex is between your ears and not between your legs”. Trans kids, like homosexuals didn’t choose their lifestyle; it was chosen for them. They fight an uphill battle to be themselves. It may be genetic or hormonal but it’s no more a conscious choice than being heterosexual. So why not join the club you most identify with?


http://www.genderadvocates.org/Tyra/TYRARisk.html


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Posted: 14 January 2012 04:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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They can put whatever letters they want in an acronym. The only relationship the groups necessarily share is that the acronym makers think they are related.

The Boy Scouts properly won the case to which you refer. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_v._Dale) This is not to say that they should receive public funding or special benefits.

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Posted: 14 January 2012 06:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Charles Collom - 14 January 2012 04:07 PM

Being transgender is not like being homosexual. Homosexuality is about the object of love and sexual desire. You know you’re gay when you are a man who is attracted to another man. Is it on a continuum? Perhaps, but it is a continuum of desire/love towards another person.  Ultimately it is about behavior and the desires that underlay that behavior.

Being transgender is a “feeling” that one’s biological sex is not in line with one’s mental gender.  This makes a fatal presupposition: that there exists an essential “femaleness” and “maleness” and that a person can know what these are.  This isn’t about behavior.  Transgender people do not say, “I am a man, but I want to dress like a woman and have a vagina shaped penis.” No, the transgendered person says, “I am, in fact, a woman.” Well, of course he is not a woman. He’s a man who believes he should have been born a woman.  But he wasn’t, and no amount of surgery will change that.

Having said that, it is my belief that anyone should be allow to dress and act in any way they please.  A man should be allowed to wear dresses, mutilate his genitals, and change his name to Cindy if he so wishes.  The Girl Scouts are a private organization and should be allowed to have whatever rules they want for membership. Join or don’t.

The real problem with the Girl Scouts is illustrated below.

Those are good points. The concept of a male and female “mental nature"opens up a new can of worms, doesn’t it? What if the boy feels female, yet is a lesbian trapped in a young boys body? The GSA would go crazy trying to figure that out.

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Posted: 14 January 2012 07:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Charles Collom - 14 January 2012 04:07 PM

Being transgender is not like being homosexual. Homosexuality is about the object of love and sexual desire. You know you’re gay when you are a man who is attracted to another man. Is it on a continuum? Perhaps, but it is a continuum of desire/love towards another person.  Ultimately it is about behavior and the desires that underlay that behavior.

Being transgender is a “feeling” that one’s biological sex is not in line with one’s mental gender.  This makes a fatal presupposition: that there exists an essential “femaleness” and “maleness” and that a person can know what these are.  This isn’t about behavior.  Transgender people do not say, “I am a man, but I want to dress like a woman and have a vagina shaped penis.” No, the transgendered person says, “I am, in fact, a woman.” Well, of course he is not a woman. He’s a man who believes he should have been born a woman.  But he wasn’t, and no amount of surgery will change that.

Having said that, it is my belief that anyone should be allow to dress and act in any way they please.  A man should be allowed to wear dresses, mutilate his genitals, and change his name to Cindy if he so wishes.  The Girl Scouts are a private organization and should be allowed to have whatever rules they want for membership. Join or don’t.

The real problem with the Girl Scouts is illustrated below.

Charles I never said the two situations were exactly the same, but the concept that helps you understand one helps you understand the other. Whether it fits with your view of the world or not both of these situations are biologically determined. They are NOT conscious choices. Its none of societies business to tell transgendered people who they should be and how they should act. As presumably mature adults, we have a responsibility to accept them for who they are and move on. Grow up already. Transgendered and gay people aren’t looking for special treatment or attention. In fact from what I see its just the opposite. They would like nothing better than to have the attention go away. They are just looking to be treated with the same respect as everyone else. The only thing that makes these people stand out in society is society’s juvenile attitudes toward anyone who is different.

I agree that the girls scouts should be allowed to do as they please. They are a private organization technically and as such have a right to associate with whomever they please.

[ Edited: 14 January 2012 07:20 PM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 14 January 2012 09:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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It looks like another part of this group’s aim is to get rid of sex education in the Girl Scouts too.
A statement on the group’s website HonestGirlScouts.com called for the Girl Scouts of USA to “eliminate sex education from Girl Scout permission and curricula”.

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Posted: 15 January 2012 03:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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I don’t think there are any studies that have proven that a man can have a woman’s brain, and I don’t think that it’s going overboard in saying that transgenders are just homosexuals who are trying to actualize their sexual desires to be a woman.

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Posted: 15 January 2012 03:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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No, because homosexuals don’t want to be women. You have a misunderstanding of homosexuality. If that were the case, they would flood to sexual reassignment clinics. If you noticed, homosexual men (for instance) are usually involved with other homosexual men. It would defeat the purpose if they became women.

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Posted: 15 January 2012 03:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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ExMachina - 15 January 2012 03:29 AM

I don’t think there are any studies that have proven that a man can have a woman’s brain, and I don’t think that it’s going overboard in saying that transgenders are just homosexuals who are trying to actualize their sexual desires to be a woman.

Do you think about things before you write them? What is a “sexual desire to be a woman?” That is a nonsensical phrase. Gay people have sexual and romantic desires for the same sex. Would you like to adduce some evidence that gay people secretly (apparently even to ourselves) want to be of the other gender? And please don’t trot out Freud’s discredited hypotheses lest I suggest you not sit too close to your mom at next Thanksgiving.

[corrected for grammar]

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Posted: 15 January 2012 04:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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asanta - 15 January 2012 03:33 AM

No, because homosexuals don’t want to be women. You have a misunderstanding of homosexuality. If that were the case, they would flood to sexual reassignment clinics. If you noticed, homosexual men (for instance) are usually involved with other homosexual men. It would defeat the purpose if they became women.

Read my statement closer. I said

transgenders are just homosexuals who are trying to actualize their sexual desires to be a woman.

I never said that all homosexuals want to be women, but that most if not almost all transgenders are homosexuals.

Edit

Btw it was an observation that I think is logical and is probably right.

[ Edited: 15 January 2012 05:30 AM by ExMachina ]
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Posted: 15 January 2012 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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ExMachina - 15 January 2012 04:57 AM
asanta - 15 January 2012 03:33 AM

No, because homosexuals don’t want to be women. You have a misunderstanding of homosexuality. If that were the case, they would flood to sexual reassignment clinics. If you noticed, homosexual men (for instance) are usually involved with other homosexual men. It would defeat the purpose if they became women.

Read my statement closer. I said

transgenders are just homosexuals who are trying to actualize their sexual desires to be a woman.

I never said that all homosexuals want to be women, but that most if not almost all transgenders are homosexuals.

Edit

Btw it was an observation that I think is logical and is probably right.

You need to read some scholarly articles on this subject. You’ve formed an opinion based entirely on a personal prejudice rather than any real understanding of the subject. Being transgendered isnt about sexual attraction. In fact it is possible for a transgendered person to be attracted to the opposite sex ( ie. a man might feel he is a woman but still be attracted to women). Sexual attraction and gender identification are both biologically determined phenomena but they are two different things. They are not necessarily linked.

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Posted: 15 January 2012 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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macgyver - 15 January 2012 05:46 AM
ExMachina - 15 January 2012 04:57 AM
asanta - 15 January 2012 03:33 AM

No, because homosexuals don’t want to be women. You have a misunderstanding of homosexuality. If that were the case, they would flood to sexual reassignment clinics. If you noticed, homosexual men (for instance) are usually involved with other homosexual men. It would defeat the purpose if they became women.

Read my statement closer. I said

transgenders are just homosexuals who are trying to actualize their sexual desires to be a woman.

I never said that all homosexuals want to be women, but that most if not almost all transgenders are homosexuals.

Edit

Btw it was an observation that I think is logical and is probably right.

You need to read some scholarly articles on this subject. You’ve formed an opinion based entirely on a personal prejudice rather than any real understanding of the subject. Being transgendered isnt about sexual attraction. In fact it is possible for a transgendered person to be attracted to the opposite sex ( ie. a man might feel he is a woman but still be attracted to women). Sexual attraction and gender identification are both biologically determined phenomena but they are two different things. They are not necessarily linked.

You are using generalizations and assumptions all the same.

Can you really say

Being transgendered isnt about sexual attraction.

a man might feel he is a woman but still be attracted to women

I haven’t seen any transgender cases that hasn’t been in a homosexual relationship. I’m not saying they don’t exist, just highly uncommon if they do.

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Posted: 15 January 2012 09:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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ExMachina - 15 January 2012 08:12 AM

I haven’t seen any transgender cases that hasn’t been in a homosexual relationship. I’m not saying they don’t exist, just highly uncommon if they do.

Like i said. Your statements are based entirely on your personal prejudices and your very limited observations which are biased ( as all personal observations are). Read something on the subject that is written by people who have actually studied it scientifically.

The studies below demonstrate the biological nature of this condition. The first one looked at a group of individuals who genetically male but morphologically female. They were raised as females, but later were discovered to be male hermaphrodites. To all the world these individuals were female until this was discovered and yet the vast majority of them developed male gender identity. The second study shows that among identical twins ( monozygotic), if one child was gender dysmorphic there was a 39% chance the second twin would also have this trait, but if the twins were fraternal or non-identical ( dizygotic) then none of them shared the trait. This is obviously not a “choice” anyone would make given all the social stigma attached and these studies provide strong evidence that it is purely biological and largely genetic.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM197905313002201

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22146048

I don’t really understand your confusion however with gender identity versus sexual preference. While most individuals are naturally attracted to members of the opposite sex obviously this is not true for all members of society. Most estimates put the rate of homosexuality around 10%. Most of them are perfectly content with their sexual identity ( ie. most gay men do not want to be women). Therefor sexual preference and sexual identity are two different characteristics. You cant go basing your conclusions on some news clips of gay pride parades with a few transvestites in them.

People come in many different varieties. Obviously most people have a psychological gender identity that matches their physical apearance, but some clearly do not. Most people are attracted to members of the opposite sex, but some obviously are not. Some people who are attracted to people of the same sex also have gender identity issues, but most do not, and some people who are gender dysmorphic are gay and some are not.

For some reason you are more comfortable believing that all gender dysmorphic people are gay. Maybe its just neater and simpler to look at the world that way. But just because your more comfortable with that doesn’t make it true.

[ Edited: 15 January 2012 09:04 AM by macgyver ]
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Posted: 15 January 2012 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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While there is a very tiny genetic difference between males and females (the X and Y versions of one chromosome), what determines their different anatomy and even brain structure are the hormones they are exposed to during gestation.  Usually, male fetuses start generating testosterone very early.  However, there are a wide variety of environmental effects, maternal exposure to various common chemicals, illness, accident, etc., that can mess up the androgen/estrogen ratio, and they will often affect the fetus’ development.  It also seems that time during gestation which these occur determines what parts of the body and mind are affected.

One extreme example is when there is NO testosterone available for a female fetus.  The result will be a retarded, small, and completely without sex drive person. 

I can easily imagine a male fetus getting a shot of estrogen or estrogen like chemicals while the testosterone is blocked at just the time the maile brain differences are occurring and him being born with male anatomy and a female brain.

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Posted: 15 January 2012 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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ExMachina - 15 January 2012 04:57 AM
asanta - 15 January 2012 03:33 AM

No, because homosexuals don’t want to be women. You have a misunderstanding of homosexuality. If that were the case, they would flood to sexual reassignment clinics. If you noticed, homosexual men (for instance) are usually involved with other homosexual men. It would defeat the purpose if they became women.

Read my statement closer. I said

transgenders are just homosexuals who are trying to actualize their sexual desires to be a woman.

I never said that all homosexuals want to be women, but that most if not almost all transgenders are homosexuals.

Edit

Btw it was an observation that I think is logical and is probably right.

I stand corrected.

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Posted: 16 January 2012 04:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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macgyver - 15 January 2012 09:00 AM
ExMachina - 15 January 2012 08:12 AM

I haven’t seen any transgender cases that hasn’t been in a homosexual relationship. I’m not saying they don’t exist, just highly uncommon if they do.

Like i said. Your statements are based entirely on your personal prejudices and your very limited observations which are biased ( as all personal observations are). Read something on the subject that is written by people who have actually studied it scientifically.

The studies below demonstrate the biological nature of this condition. The first one looked at a group of individuals who genetically male but morphologically female. They were raised as females, but later were discovered to be male hermaphrodites. To all the world these individuals were female until this was discovered and yet the vast majority of them developed male gender identity. The second study shows that among identical twins ( monozygotic), if one child was gender dysmorphic there was a 39% chance the second twin would also have this trait, but if the twins were fraternal or non-identical ( dizygotic) then none of them shared the trait. This is obviously not a “choice” anyone would make given all the social stigma attached and these studies provide strong evidence that it is purely biological and largely genetic.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM197905313002201

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22146048

I don’t really understand your confusion however with gender identity versus sexual preference. While most individuals are naturally attracted to members of the opposite sex obviously this is not true for all members of society. Most estimates put the rate of homosexuality around 10%. Most of them are perfectly content with their sexual identity ( ie. most gay men do not want to be women). Therefor sexual preference and sexual identity are two different characteristics. You cant go basing your conclusions on some news clips of gay pride parades with a few transvestites in them.

People come in many different varieties. Obviously most people have a psychological gender identity that matches their physical apearance, but some clearly do not. Most people are attracted to members of the opposite sex, but some obviously are not. Some people who are attracted to people of the same sex also have gender identity issues, but most do not, and some people who are gender dysmorphic are gay and some are not.

For some reason you are more comfortable believing that all gender dysmorphic people are gay. Maybe its just neater and simpler to look at the world that way. But just because your more comfortable with that doesn’t make it true.

Well…...I’m not about to spend $170 to subscribe to the site to find out the information that you’re talking about and the second site was also requiring payment to which I really don’t want to know how much they want.

Interestingly enough, from the small blurb of information that they did give about it. They did call it a disorder, so it seems that from the medical standpoint, that there is something mentally wrong with a transgender.

I was curious though, are you you saying prejudice as though I my judgments are based on fear or hatred or are you just implying that I lack the proper information to see the full picture?

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