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Transgender boys in girl scouts.
Posted: 21 January 2012 08:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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dougsmith - 21 January 2012 06:18 AM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 04:09 AM

Does anyone her truly believe that a man can be trapped in woman’s body and vice verse?

and

Is there really anyone here who believes that it is possible to change a persons sex?

Does anyone not? Where do we get data on these sorts of things? By reports from individuals effected. Why on earth would someone make something like that up?

And why aren’t you willing to take their reports seriously?

How could taking a transgenders bias opinion possibly be scientific evidence of a brain being in the wrong body?  What science could possibly prove such miraculous claim? At best, I’ve read similar EEG patterns of the prefered gender, but still there was hormone treatment in all the cases that I have seen. Btw the reports in the links that were given were only half a page long and honestly didn’t explain much, but what I did find interesting is that science recognizes transgenders as being mentally ill. Personally, I thought that was going a bit far, but then again, you can’t deny the reports.

Edit

I wanted to mention that I more willing to accept the possibility of the first question, but that there is now way that anyone can change their sex unless they find a good witch doctor.

[ Edited: 21 January 2012 08:22 AM by ExMachina ]
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Posted: 21 January 2012 09:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:09 AM

How could taking a transgenders bias opinion possibly be scientific evidence of a brain being in the wrong body?  What science could possibly prove such miraculous claim? At best, I’ve read similar EEG patterns of the prefered gender, but still there was hormone treatment in all the cases that I have seen. Btw the reports in the links that were given were only half a page long and honestly didn’t explain much, but what I did find interesting is that science recognizes transgenders as being mentally ill. Personally, I thought that was going a bit far, but then again, you can’t deny the reports.

Edit

I wanted to mention that I more willing to accept the possibility of the first question, but that there is now way that anyone can change their sex unless they find a good witch doctor.

Sounds like a tendentious and frankly intolerant way to interpret the data. No “miracles” are involved in a person being overtly male and yet feeling that they are female, or the reverse.

I assume you feel the same way about gays.

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Posted: 21 January 2012 03:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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dougsmith - 21 January 2012 09:42 AM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:09 AM

How could taking a transgenders bias opinion possibly be scientific evidence of a brain being in the wrong body?  What science could possibly prove such miraculous claim? At best, I’ve read similar EEG patterns of the prefered gender, but still there was hormone treatment in all the cases that I have seen. Btw the reports in the links that were given were only half a page long and honestly didn’t explain much, but what I did find interesting is that science recognizes transgenders as being mentally ill. Personally, I thought that was going a bit far, but then again, you can’t deny the reports.

Edit

I wanted to mention that I more willing to accept the possibility of the first question, but that there is now way that anyone can change their sex unless they find a good witch doctor.

Sounds like a tendentious and frankly intolerant way to interpret the data. No “miracles” are involved in a person being overtly male and yet feeling that they are female, or the reverse.

I assume you feel the same way about gays.

“Yup, I’s hate dem gays sonny.”

Seriously, you had to turn it into that, because I disagree with you?

What are you referring to when you say I’m being intolerant? Believing that a womans brain can be trapped in a mans body, or that sex changes are possible?

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Posted: 21 January 2012 03:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:05 PM

“Yup, I’s hate dem gays sonny.”

Seriously, you had to turn it into that, because I disagree with you?

Not sure what you’re on about. Your arguments seem identical to some of those folks who argue that being gay is an absurdity or they are making it up or it’s completely unnatural or what have you.

ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:05 PM

What are you referring to when you say I’m being intolerant? Believing that a womans brain can be trapped in a mans body, or that sex changes are possible?

You yourself may not be able to appreciate what it is to be transgendered (neither do I, in fact). But in being unwilling to take their reports at face value, and indeed to appear to mock them as you do, is the problem. Your attitude is one of intolerance towards transgendered people. You come up with specious arguments to bolster that intolerance. (E.g., it’s not really a sex change. So what?)

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Posted: 21 January 2012 03:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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dougsmith - 21 January 2012 03:14 PM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:05 PM

“Yup, I’s hate dem gays sonny.”

Seriously, you had to turn it into that, because I disagree with you?

Not sure what you’re on about. Your arguments seem identical to some of those folks who argue that being gay is an absurdity or they are making it up or it’s completely unnatural or what have you.

ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:05 PM

What are you referring to when you say I’m being intolerant? Believing that a womans brain can be trapped in a mans body, or that sex changes are possible?

You yourself may not be able to appreciate what it is to be transgendered (neither do I, in fact). But in being unwilling to take their reports at face value, and indeed to appear to mock them as you do, is the problem. Your attitude is one of intolerance towards transgendered people. You come up with specious arguments to bolster that intolerance. (E.g., it’s not really a sex change. So what?)

So if someone were to tell me that he’s a 15th wizard right out of Dungeons and Dragons, and I disagree, I’m being intolorant?

I’m not claiming to understand how difficult it would be to have GID, nor do I condemn them for it, but telling me that you can turn a man into a woman is highly debatable! and I can’t see how you could possibly see this as being done through physical mutilation of ones genitals? Even if you can make it look like a vagina it still lacks the ovaries, uterus, and he still would never be capable of giving birth.

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Posted: 21 January 2012 05:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:28 PM

but telling me that you can turn a man into a woman is highly debatable!

`
Are you kidding?  M to F sex changes are easy kapeezy compared to the reverse :)

`

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Posted: 21 January 2012 06:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:28 PM

Even if you can make it look like a vagina it still lacks the ovaries, uterus, and he still would never be capable of giving birth.

`
So….?

There are TONS of women-born-women who have aforementioned reproductive parts removed at some point in their lives ~ are you suggesting that they’re not women because they now lack that equipment?

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Posted: 21 January 2012 06:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:28 PM

So if someone were to tell me that he’s a 15th wizard right out of Dungeons and Dragons, and I disagree, I’m being intolorant?

No, what’s intolerant is comparing transgendered people with people telling you they’re a 15th wizard out of D&D.

ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:28 PM

I’m not claiming to understand how difficult it would be to have GID, nor do I condemn them for it, but telling me that you can turn a man into a woman is highly debatable! and I can’t see how you could possibly see this as being done through physical mutilation of ones genitals? Even if you can make it look like a vagina it still lacks the ovaries, uterus, and he still would never be capable of giving birth.

Not condemning it? You’re certainly disparaging it. I get the feeling you’d condemn it if you felt it was socially acceptable on this forum to do so.

Nobody denies that you can’t literally turn a man into a woman or vice versa: medical science isn’t yet up to that task. My point is that that is totally irrelevant as an argument against being transgendered.

If it makes someone happier to have a sex-change operation, whether or not that operation is 100% successful, what skin is it off your nose? As Jefferson would say, it doesn’t pick your pocket or break your leg.

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Posted: 21 January 2012 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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dougsmith - 21 January 2012 06:14 PM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:28 PM

So if someone were to tell me that he’s a 15th wizard right out of Dungeons and Dragons, and I disagree, I’m being intolorant?

No, what’s intolerant is comparing transgendered people with people telling you they’re a 15th wizard out of D&D.

We’re getting our wires crossed here. I was referring to people who insist I say that they are the gender they’ve been sexed changed into. It doesn’t bother me if a transsexual man wants to believe he’s a woman, but I don’t like him or anyone else nsisiting that
believe his is a woman. Seriously, would you be equally willing to have a full sexual relationship with a transgender male to female as you would any woman? If you have any doubts on this, then you too are guilty of this horrible act of discrimination that I apparently seem to be guilty of. 

 

ExMachina - 21 January 2012 03:28 PM

I’m not claiming to understand how difficult it would be to have GID, nor do I condemn them for it, but telling me that you can turn a man into a woman is highly debatable! and I can’t see how you could possibly see this as being done through physical mutilation of ones genitals? Even if you can make it look like a vagina it still lacks the ovaries, uterus, and he still would never be capable of giving birth.

dougsmith - 21 January 2012 06:14 PM

Not condemning it? You’re certainly disparaging it. I get the feeling you’d condemn it if you felt it was socially acceptable on this forum to do so.

Nobody denies that you can’t literally turn a man into a woman or vice versa: medical science isn’t yet up to that task. My point is that that is totally irrelevant as an argument against being transgendered.

If it makes someone happier to have a sex-change operation, whether or not that operation is 100% successful, what skin is it off your nose? As Jefferson would say, it doesn’t pick your pocket or break your leg.

Disparaging it? because I’m disagreeing with the claims I become the agitator? Nice. That sounds like a lot of the Christian nonsensical crap that I hear about how not agreeing whether a God exists makes me a hateful angry person.  I haven’t seen any REAL evidence that solidly can prove that a woman’s brain can be trapped in a mans body and no, testimony from transgenders claiming to be such is not evidence of them being such. I have not seen any science do brain scans on a transgenders that maps out the exact same as a woman’s.  Like I’ve said earlier, a transgenders brain has had similarities to their preferred gender, but never an exact match. Hence they had to have hormonal treatment done. 

btw

Your comparing of transgenders to homosexuals was completely absurd. We have yet to fully prove that a woman’s brain can be in a mans body, but we can definitively recognize a persons sexual preference by his actions.

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Posted: 21 January 2012 08:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 07:48 PM

Your comparing of transgenders to homosexuals was completely absurd. We have yet to fully prove that a woman’s brain can be in a mans body, but we can definitively recognize a persons sexual preference by his actions.

Nonsense. We can also definitively recognize a person’s decided gender by their actions: in particular whether or not they act as male or female and claim to want to be accepted as such.

Once again, this is simply sophistry covering intolerance. Get over it.

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Posted: 21 January 2012 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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dougsmith - 21 January 2012 08:12 PM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 07:48 PM

Your comparing of transgenders to homosexuals was completely absurd. We have yet to fully prove that a woman’s brain can be in a mans body, but we can definitively recognize a persons sexual preference by his actions.

Nonsense. We can also definitively recognize a person’s decided gender by their actions: in particular whether or not they act as male or female and claim to want to be accepted as such.

Once again, this is simply sophistry covering intolerance. Get over it.

No, in actuality this is just another example of extreme liberal intolerance to anyone who doesn’t fully agree with their perspective.

[ Edited: 21 January 2012 08:22 PM by ExMachina ]
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Posted: 21 January 2012 08:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:20 PM

No, in actuality this is just another example of extreme liberal intolerance to anyone who doesn’t fully agree with their perspective.

Riiiiiiight. Thirty years ago, we’d be talking about homophobia. Forty years ago, sexism. Fifty years ago, racism. Same liberal intolerance. Damn those liberals.

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Posted: 21 January 2012 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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dougsmith - 21 January 2012 08:26 PM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:20 PM

No, in actuality this is just another example of extreme liberal intolerance to anyone who doesn’t fully agree with their perspective.

Riiiiiiight. Thirty years ago, we’d be talking about homophobia. Forty years ago, sexism. Fifty years ago, racism. Same liberal intolerance. Damn those liberals.

You really need to get off this kick. Do you really think that this has to do about bigotry? because I’ve noticed that you seem to think that all this is rooted in some diabolical hatred that I have towards transgenders. Tacking on all the other issues of phobias and hatreds of past made this all too apparent about where your motivations of the issues have come from. I said that a persons mind could have a great deal of similarities of that of the gender that is opposed to their own. My claim was just that nothing scientifically has proven a complete identical match from a transgenders brain to the brain of their preferred sex. I’m not so focused on the social issues that TG have that you seemed to be so animate about bringing up.

[ Edited: 21 January 2012 08:39 PM by ExMachina ]
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Posted: 21 January 2012 08:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:36 PM

My claim was just that nothing scientifically has proven a complete identical match from a transgenders brain to the brain of their preferred sex.

This claim is uncontroversial, AFAIK, and also completely beside the point. It should imply nothing about how we treat transgendered people publicly.

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Posted: 21 January 2012 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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dougsmith - 21 January 2012 08:41 PM
ExMachina - 21 January 2012 08:36 PM

My claim was just that nothing scientifically has proven a complete identical match from a transgenders brain to the brain of their preferred sex.

This claim is uncontroversial, AFAIK, and also completely beside the point. It should imply nothing about how we treat transgendered people publicly.

Actually, the claim of what exactly transgenders are is highly controversial and is constantly under scrutiny, but TG will never have a normal life because it is a disorder. Would you honestly say that you could have a physical relationship with a TG equally and as undoubtedly as you could with any woman?

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